92 replies to this topic

[strummer]

Wow...I guess this would be 1/32?

 

Mark in Oregon

[don.siegel]

Yep. 

 

Generally considered the holy grail for European collectors, especially British. Kind of like the Cox 2E in 1/24 for Americans, but appears to have far fewer examples manufactured. 

 

Don 

[strummer]

Yep. 

 

Generally considered the holy grail for European collectors, especially British. Kind of like the Cox 2E in 1/24 for Americans, but seems to have been far fewer made. 

 

Don 

 

Question: It's my understanding from PDL's book that the Cox Chaparral 2 (like the type I've been working on) was/is the second most common 1/24 slot car ever made. So...

 

...how/why is it that a (kinda) similar model (from the same manufacturer!) is considered the "holy grail"; the extreme opposite?

 

I'm not at all doubting you ; just seems rather curious. Please enlighten.

 

Mark in Oregon

[TSR]

Mark, the Cox original Chaparral model, the "2A" (incorrectly named by Cox "2C" which it is of course not) is likely the slot car produced in the highest numbers, ever. Over one MILLION kits sold. It competes in this with the Classic Manta Ray, also reportedly sold over a million copies.

The Cox "2E" is a different animal altogether, issued in 3 different versions and in far smaller quantities, as by 1966, the market had already partially tanked. The "RTR" version is fairly common, while the two kits are scarce or in the case of the "Mag" version, rare. But, production numbers were still in the tens of thousands. It is just that INTACT kits are rare, not so much the cars themselves.

[strummer]

Mark, the Cox original Chaparral model, the "2A" (incorrectly named by Cox "2C" which it is of course not) is likely the slot car produced in the highest numbers, ever. Over one MILLION kits sold. It competes in this with the Classic Manta Ray, also reportedly sold over a million copies.

The Cox "2E" is a different animal altogether, issued in 3 different versions and in far smaller quantities,

 

1. as by 1966, the market had already partially tanked. The "RTR" version is fairly common, while the two kits are scarce or in the case of the "Mag" version, rare. But, production numbers were still in the tens of thousands.

 

2.It is just that INTACT kits are rare, not so much the cars themselves.

 

1.  Holy cow; that's a LOT of kits!

 

2. It occurred to me that that might be partially the reason, thanks.

 

3. I guess that could (more or less) apply to a great many models, right?

 

This discussion points out what I think is one of the more interesting aspects to this "whole thing". In the train collecting field, you have a very similar dynamic, as far as variations, colors, upgrades, etc. This is over a time frame of literally decades of manufacturing.

 

But in this field, and in a very short span of time, millions and millions of models, parts, etc. were made available...and then, almost as quickly as it started...it all seemed to go away. Sure, there were short-lived fads, like the hula-hoop. But you could get one of those and not need to upgrade it with a dizzying array of parts, service, etc.

 

So is it fair to say that in some ways, the story of "slot mania" is unique in the history of the toy industry?

 

Mark in Oregon

[TSR]

Mark, it has a different story than in most other hobbies because of rapid technical progress that made new products obsolete before they even reached the market... and the fact that some of the customers were far smarter than the product engineers and while they helped tank the hobby, they also put these people in their place, in the Hall of Fame of Mediocrity.
 

[MattD]

RE-visited this thread today.   It is now over a year and a half old.     I wonder if there have been "finds" that might change some of what  we have discussed.

 

I do know LASCM found some BZ 2E's with boxes and retail price stickers, so we know those cars were sold in at least one store.    I have found 3 silver cars, Know of 7-10 examples in another collectors hands.   I think LASCM has 8-10 examples.     That's at least 20 cars I know of in 3 collections.   There have been 3-4 others on Ebay that were sold, but not to us.   

 

If Philippe checks in, he can add what new info  they may have regarding rarities and the products we have been discussing.   

[don.siegel]

Well, thanks Matt! I just reread the whole thread... 

 

I don't think that anything too important has come up in the meantime, nothing comparable to discoveries like the Cyclonic or the BZ 2E in a box... 

 

But if anybody has other info, it's welcome. 

 

Don 

[Don Wedding]

You guys mention Rare slot cars ,but there should also be a category Rare and never found , Here is the Cox Grandstand display to sell boxed ready to run cars and a place to sell your used Cox slot cars. I consider this my search for the Holy Grail. 

 Also The Cox Nickel Plated chassis tube parts display tree.  Both Were dealer only items but still pretty neat-o. to be able to find these. What do you think Doc ? 

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[TSR]

Don, you are correct, so far, none of the metal display rack has surfaced, but we have been able to find a few of the packed boxes for it, albeit not in the best of shape.
As far as the grandstand display, again, found nothing yet...

Meanwhile, a revised list. The Precision/Custom Slot Car Products Lotus and Lola are at this time, the rarest we know of.

1/ Precision "Series 2" (advertised as "Custom Slot Car Products) "Pacesetter Lola T70" and "Pacer Lotus 30" RTRs. At this time, only one each boxed examples, and one Lotus in Don Siegel's hands. Took over 20 years of research to at last, see a real one.

2/ Unique "Mako Shark RTR (only ONE known example, while Don Siegel owns one of its equally scarce "black" chassis from one in his collection)

3/ Gar-Vic "Lunar" in boxed kit form (so far only one known example of a Gar-Vic kit)

4/ Classic "Stinger Roadster" kit (new, sealed in box, again, only one known to exist in intact form)

5/ Testor Honda F1 RTR in metallic green color (boxed or even loose, only one known...)
 

Next (equally shared, as less than 2 examples of each are currently known to exist):

BZ Chaparral 2E (3 MIB, another 8 to 10 loose  in very nice condition, another 10 or so in fair to poor condition, some just a damaged body, all missing their wings and with either missing or damaged struts)
Champion Ford Galaxie stocker kit (to count, this has to be a boxed kit with the correct label as it is not that difficult to make up a kit, and that has no real historical value)
Competition Hobbies BRP-Ford Indy car RTR (boxed or even loose, we have one at the LASCM, another showed up at auction as described in this thread)
Monogram McLaren Elva in kit form with painted vacuum formed body (new in box, only three genuine cars known, but only one MIB...)
Cyclonic "Tornado" Lola GT  RTR  (two known in original box, only one with box's sticker and packing foam)

Dugan Lola T70 & Lotus 30 RTRs (two known of each, unboxed, one each in mint condition, the others used)

International "Furious Fiat"  RTR (two known, one in original box)

Pactra "Meyers Manx" dune buggy RTR (two known, the second in near-mint body form only without decals, both unboxed)
Pactra Matich SR3 RTR (two known, both close to mint, unboxed)
Calex Chaparral 2F kit (new in box, two known)
Testor 1966 "Harrison-Ford" Indy car RTR (only one known in box with factory applied decals, a handful of others w/o decals)

15/ Lindberg Porsche 906 kit (possibly less than 10 in existence)

16/ K&B Ford MkII RTR in box (about 4 in their boxes and a few "loose" examples)

17/ Pactra Ford MkIV & BRP-Ford Indy car RTRs (now 6 known Fords including 2 MIB, 3 BRPs including one MIB...)

Can you add to this list or discuss any of these models?
 

[MattD]

I've had two built  vac formed  Monogram Mclaren Elvas with their boxes.  One was the kit with AJ's silicones and the same sticker on the box.  I also got one loose example.    Loose one may have been RTR,  the other two came with their boxes and paperwork.    Neither one sold for very high prices.   

 

I'm thinking there is a picture of a Grandstand display somewhere on the net.    That doesn't mean they were actually sent out, but that there were some prototypes.   

 

.  

[Don Wedding]

Matt , the grandstand was a item the dealer could order that had 18 RTR cars underneath the platform . There is a item number at bottom of page with a price .

[MattD]

Don, I wondered if the Grandstand ever got beyond a picture and number in the dealer catalog.    I just figured maybe it could have been planned and prototypes done, but never really produced and shipped out.

 

I also wonder how close we are to the point of not really learning anymore about 60's cars and production.   We are now 50-60 years past the era we are talking about.   We are talking about toys that didn't have much value until 20 years or more later.   How many more new items will be found in attics and basements, or the corner of a hobby shop?  Probably 99% of the hobby shops and toy stores from that era are gone.     Most basements and attics have long since gone to new owners and had a thorough clean out.

 

Memories of the people involved first hand are now at least 80 years old.   Just wondering.

[Don Wedding]

I also remember the BZ Chaparral 2E that was only pictured in there advertisement and we all doubted that it was ever produced and then 20 years ago they started surfacing. I would think if they went to all the trouble of listing the item and had pictures that it was produced . The problem with the Cox Grandstand is that it was just a cardboard display that held the 18 cars underneath. After the cars were sold I am sure it was pitched out , just like any carton that was empty . No one saw or thought of the value of just a box back then .

[don.siegel]

Matt, 

 

I think there may be one last wave coming from all of us who are now around 70, give or take a few years... As folks of our generation die, families may still discover quite a bit of stuff up in attics or down in basements. Not to mention all us major collectors, who could flood the market as we pass away - with absolutely nobody interested by then! 

 

But I agree that hobby shops, distributors, etc. were picked clean long ago and unless there's a hidden warehouse in the 4th dimension, any big finds are unlikely. Somebody like Van Rossem was already systematically contacting all the old hobby shops in Europe about 30 years ago... 

 

Don 

[Mad Mark]

Matt, 
 
I think there may be one last wave coming from all of us who are now around 70, give or take a few years... As folks of our generation die, families may still discover quite a bit of stuff up in attics or down in basements. Not to mention all us major collectors, who could flood the market as we pass away - with absolutely nobody interested by then! 
 
But I agree that hobby shops, distributors, etc. were picked clean long ago and unless there's a hidden warehouse in the 4th dimension, any big finds are unlikely. Somebody like Van Rossem was already systematically contacting all the old hobby shops in Europe about 30 years ago... 
 
Don

I’m in my 30’s I’ll buy up all the goodies just as long as people’s relatives don’t throw it all in the trash!

[Mad Mark]

Don, I wondered if the Grandstand ever got beyond a picture and number in the dealer catalog.    I just figured maybe it could have been planned and prototypes done, but never really produced and shipped out.
 
I also wonder how close we are to the point of not really learning anymore about 60's cars and production.   We are now 50-60 years past the era we are talking about.   We are talking about toys that didn't have much value until 20 years or more later.   How many more new items will be found in attics and basements, or the corner of a hobby shop?  Probably 99% of the hobby shops and toy stores from that era are gone.     Most basements and attics have long since gone to new owners and had a thorough clean out.
 
Memories of the people involved first hand are now at least 80 years old.   Just wondering.

It’s changed a lot even since I was a kid looking in antique stores for slot cars in the early 00’s. I remember seeing boxed Revell genie ford and K&B sportsman (where probably like $80). most antique stores had some messed up old scratchbuilts in them. kind of feel like the era of finding lots of good treasures for good prices is pretty much up for slot cars. same with hot rod stuff from the 50’s and 60’s you could still get for good prices and was more abundant in the 90’s. it’s at the point now where stuff from
The 90’s is abundant and will be worth more in the next 10-15 years.

[MattD]

There's sure to be a few things found here and there in warehouses or hobby shops.  Maybe a bit of NOS stock still hiding somewhere.    I doubt if it will be very much. 

 

  No doubt there is still a bit of used stuff from the 60's in attics, but I would think 90-95% of it has seen light and has new owners.

 

Ebay has drawn out this stuff like a magnet..