40 replies to this topic

[Gil Aubin]

Congratulations to the NERR regulars for their strong showings at RetroPalooza 17 held at the world famous PJ Raceway June 11-14.

 

George Wixon - 5th in Stock Car A Main, 3rd in F1 A Main, and a strong run in Can-Am before he "blowed up" in the last heat.

 

Dave Gesner - 3rd in Can-Am C Main, qualified into the A Main for Stock Cars but blowed up, strong runs in FK and F1 but, yup, blowed up.

 

Woody - 7th in FK A Main, 4th in Can-Am B Main (but would have caught 3rd if race lasted 30 more seconds), strong run in F1 but in Stock Car he... blowed up.

 

Honorary NERR racer Matt Crepeau 3rd in Stock Car C Main.

 

Gil - FK 2nd in B Main (only 25 laps back!), 2nd in Can-Am C Main, 12th overall in Stock Car and DNF'd in F1.

 

Dom - Fast all weekend, 3rd in Can-Am and Coupe, 4th in Stock Car, TQ in F1, and 2nd qualifier in Can-Am Plus but ... blowed up in both.

 

Jon - 4th in Can-Am A Main, 3rd in Stock Car B Main, 7th in F1 A Main, and 1st in FK Coupe becoming the latest "Pro."  His first race in Pro Coupe ended with an exploded gear!

 

Congratulations to all for the results but perhaps, most important, the camaraderie. 

 

Can't wait for the start of the NERR season!!

[NSwanberg]

Voltage?

[Gil Aubin]

Voltage?

 

I'm not sure of the voltage, but I think that aggressive gearing and possibly too soft tires were the issue for some people. With that level of competition we were all pushing the limits of the speed/reliability equation.  

[mreibman]

Voltage at PJR is pretty consistent, hovering at 14.3-14.4 volts.

[Dominator]

Voltage was 13.7.

[MSwiss]

I'm not sure of the voltage, but I think that aggressive gearing and possibly too soft tires were the issue for some people. With that level of competition we were all pushing the limits of the speed/reliability equation.  

 

Just curious, Gil, since you've started Retro racing, how many motors have you blown?

[Mark Onofri]

I don't feel so bad knowing that I'm not the only one who's car(s) quiffed during a race. I'd like to say to those who weren't that fortunate what they tell me: Don't give up and, better luck next time. 🤨

[Gil Aubin]

Just curious, Gil, since you've started Retro racing, how many motors have you blown?

 
Only one, and I think that was because I broke it in incorrectly. The CR102s have been super consistent and super reliable, and while I think they are sometimes too fast, it is a trade-off I am more than willing to make. I still run some of the single digit early releases at Modelville on Tuesday nights. 

 

Of all the hand-out motors I saw that weekend none of them seemed extra fast or extra slow. But when you have guys like Dominator, Tebo, Matt Bruce, Chubby coming off the lead-on faster than everyone else their motors will seem faster on the straight. Neither Jon nor I had any issues all weekend, obviously a class like Stock Car where you are pushing more weight with worse aerodynamics will run hotter but a pit fan between heats was all we needed.

[JerseyJohn]

Not that anyone cares about my opinion LOL but I will give it anyway about the motor's blowing.

 

I really don't believe that an issue with the motor per se. There are several things that lead up to a motor letting out the smoke on. First off, it is a high-banked King track highly glued. The voltage at 13.8 isn't a problem. We run it on other tracks but on this kind of track you're constantly on the controller almost full blast all the time other than a few blips here and there. The motor is constantly being pushed.

 

And running the tires that we run which bite real well and taking into consideration the glue it puts a lot of pressure on the motor. And when motors face that kind of resistancem, it increases the current draw to the motor - amps. As resistance goes up, whether it's mechanical resistance or electrical resistance, the current increases and with current increase there's heat. We're constantly hammering the trigger and not giving the motor a chance to wind down.

 

It is a perfect storm to blow a motor, especially if it's geared such as 12/27. I ran 11/26 and a lot of others did too in Can-Am and coupe and had no problems. It's not an insurmountable issue if you gear sensibly. The only time I've ever blown a motor on that track is when I gear 12/27.

 

A lot of those guys practiced a lot with time on their motor. So my opinion is while the motor is a very aggressive kind of motor It is not the motor that's causing the motor to pop. It's a whole lot other issues involved. Gearing is the big issue ...

[slotcarone]

We have always smoked motors on the King at PJ. I don't remember any issues with the Puppy Dog motors there. But that was a different King track. It's only the FK motors that seem to have an issue on that track. But that is the only place there is really any issue smoking motors!

[Dominator]

Personally I have not blown a motor there in about 4 or 5 years. The least likely class to blown a motor in is F1. Granted it was a older Gen 13 motor but it still had plenty of brush and the motor never got hot. I didn't even have to cool it between heats and it was geared 11/26. It was just random.

Can Am Plus was similar. It was a Gen 25 motor with about 80 laps on it. Compared to what others were geared I was on the "mild side" with 12/25. Motor never got hot and I didn't have to cool it between heats. Keep it mind these cars weigh on average between 84-87 grams so you can go a bit more aggressive with gearing. There were a number of guys running 13 pinions.

Power was not an issue. The track surface has a lot of grip in the corners so finding the right chassis set up and tire hardness is key to keeping the car free so it does not get bogged down.

[John Luongo]

Interesting problem. If I thought I had too much bite, I think I would have tried narrowing my rear tires or micro-siped them.

[Gil's son]

Just curious, Gil, since you've started Retro racing, how many motors have you blown?

Just an FYI, I dropped out about halfway through Coupe Pro. But I ended up using that handout motor for both the F1 and Can-Am race as well. I'm hoping to get one more race out of it at the Brawl.

[MSwiss]

Gil, Jersey, Jon, thanks for chiming in.

 

I'm up in Michigan on vacation so I have a bit of time to respond.

 

Excuse me if I explained some of this before.

 

The motor was never intended as a Retro motor. It was sourced during Covid when I had some spare time.

 

With having the longest drag strip in the country (world?) I had been running direct drive sidewinder dragsters.

My 40 ft+ shutdown made it fairly feasible as direct drive doesn't stop as fast as normal geared cars.

 

I guessed at 40K RPM as something that might provide a good starting point.

 

With Retro Hawks recognized as 48 or 50K, I obviously didn't have any ambition to use it as an alternative. After trying it in the direct cars, I gave them a shot with low numeric gearing.  They performed so well I decided to try them in a Retro car.

 

I started with 9/27 which I thought might be too conservative and I was correct. A ton of brakes and shy on bank speed, the times were slower than Retro Hawks, but surprisingly, not by a a lot. I then tried a 10t and it matched the times of a good Retro Hawk, but with plenty of brakes on reserve.

 

When there was a big race with a racer trying to keep his motor hot between heats using a lighter, it was time for

the IRRA to revisit the motor situation.

 

I started sending motors out to prominent racers to try, telling them they could start with a 9, but likely have to 

go with a 10t. It was well received because of the brakes and there became talk to start using them.

 

I envioned the two motors racing together with guys with good Retro Hawks electing to use them

as they were a gram or two lighter.

 

Before I knew it, there was talk about how much faster they were, with the explanation they were using 11 and even 12 tooth pinions and ignoring that the windings were turning black and even occasionally moving.

 

My old boss, Stu Koford, would laugh that guys were comfortable running them that hot and not changing to a more conservative ratio.

 

I have a top Retro racer friend who acknowledges he knows he's rolling the dice geared 12/27, but is willing to accept the consequences.

 

Unfortunately, there are some who think if seven motors have lived, running them black, if the eighth motor blows, it's somehow inferior. I can't spec the motor with the  stipulation "must withstand an extra 30 degrees of abuse."

 

IMO, the fact that quite a few do, is an accident. The winds are loose enough, they can move a bit, almost like extension joints on a sidewalk. Maybe the low numeric ratio and thus, the armature not spinning real fast, all contributes to the surprising "success" rate.

 

But it's not realistic to accept it as normal and expected.

 

That would be like if you fell off the roof of your house and somehow didn't get hurt and then then the next time you fell off your roof, you got mad when you broke your leg.

 

I had access to the best armatures in the business and it wasn't a license for me to race like a drunken sailor. LOL.

[Dan Ebert]

I lost one motor in practice. geared 11/27. I am sure it would have gone south eventually. No matter where I was. 

 

From what I have seen at Palooza, guys that push gear ratios are usually the guys blowing up. 

[MSwiss]

I was told the track conditions were too sticky for the handout tires.

 

What I don't understand as a racer who in the last three-four Sano Can-Am A Main  narrowed his tires at least once and sometimes twice, mid-Main, is other racers' reluctance to narrow theirs.

 

Whenever I have contact with these guys mid-Big Race, lamenting about sticky conditions, and I ask if they narrowed their tires, I inevitably get one of the following excuses.

A - I'm thinking about it.

B - that will be my last option

C - not yet

D - I'm going to try harder tires

 

What's even more perplexing is when they are ex-wing racers.

 

I was hoping to see some shots of the bottoms of the podium cars to see if anyone did.

[Cheater]

I was hoping to see some shots of the bottoms of the podium cars to see if anyone did.

I'd be happy with a decent race report here at Slotblog, but I'm not expecting one.

[Dominator]

Greg,

 

Jersey John is working on a report.

[raisin27]

Maybe my memory is wrong (that seems to happen more and more as I get older!) but I thought it was illegal to narrow tires. The one time I tried it, I got bounced in tech.

[Cheater]

Raisin,

 

Narrowing tires was never illegal under any ruleset I can recall racing under.

It cartainly is permitted under IRRA rules.

[Dominator]

100% legal to narrow rear tires. 
 
Front tires need to meet the minimum width for can am/coupe at .225" and .375" for F1 and Stock Car. Tires cannot be coned, knifed, or angled.

[Gil's son]

I can't speak for others, but for me I'm still learning these cars, what they need, and most importantly how to drive them. Can-Am and Coupe are like a combination of Boxstock and flexi cars from my day. F1 maybe a combination of Eurosport and flexi. Stock Cars I'm still not sure what they drive like, I'm struggling with them the most.
 
I'm learning each race, but still look for input from Dom for what the car should feel like. Mid-race tuning like tire or spoiler trimming is still above my ability and knowledge.

[George W]

Track was too rubbered up for Can-Am race. We should have been able run a harder tire than Thunder mediums. Just my opinion.

[slotcarone]

Mid-race tuning like tire or spoiler trimming is still above my ability and knowledge.

 

Tires cannot be trimmed mid-race in a Retro race. Spoiler adjustment are common.

[MSwiss]

Tires cannot be trimmed mid-race in a Retro race.

 

If that's the case, I missed it for 18 years.

 

I can't even imagine why we would have made that rule.