216 replies to this topic

[Larry Mattingly]

D3 races here in SoCal. It's still the largest viable racing slot class's going in the country

Rick is correct...

Not even close... I think IRRA will win that distiction. Race? Check out the numbers from the R4 at Tom Thumb. Series? Penn-Ohio, ORS and Retro East ALL pull better retro numbers than BP.

I will agree that D3 is your baby, and are perfectly free to do what you want, and follow any rule set that you want...

Just trying to correct some false information.

LM

[dougmatthes]

FYI...

today BPR had the following tires stocked...
JK87xx series.
Kelly Purple, White and Lime.

BPR special ordered 10 pair,
Alpha Wonder Med Large Hub Drilled, (should be available Thursday)

[Bryan Warmack]

"Any tires not available at the counter will be refused at tech.
I have seen today what is available behind said counter, and there are various JK, Kelly and Alpha tires, but not in huge quantities, so may I suggest that if you are running a tire that MAY not be available to all, you call the raceway either today Sunday or first thing Tuesday (well, after 3 PM anyway) and order the type you will use, even one pair so as to justify whatever you wish to run and cover yourselves. The raceway will get the tires by Thursday.
Dave Larsen, or any other racer mounting your own rubber on whatever wheels, I am sorry but you will apparently have to use tires purchased from the raceway for this event.
If you do not agree with the above, I guess better stay home and begin your own racing series."

I see a million pitfalls and have as many questions concerning whatever is going on here but will ask only TWO in reference to Philippe's above comments............ If I give Buena Park a brand new set of tires in the vial of the exact type which I plan to run and tell them to sell them over the counter to some one else, are the tires on my car legal?................ and, what the heck is the reason for opening this can of worms now???!!!

[dougmatthes]

BTW, BPR has never stocked D3 legal Alpha tires...thanks BPR for making this special order.

[Bryan Warmack]

FYI...

today BPR had the following tires stocked...
JK87xx series.
Kelly Purple, White and Lime.

BPR special ordered 10 pair,
Alpha Wonder Med Large Hub Drilled, (should be available Thursday)

Another Question??? If the Alpha hubs don't show up in time to be placed behind the counter on race day, will the intention of making them available, make my Alphas legal??

[redbackspyder]

Doug, Alpha Piranha tires have been available behind the counter at Buena Park for over a year. I personally have bought them from Lenore.

[68Caddy]

Doug see what you did? You got every one running around for tires, lets see if Paul is going to be able to check all the tires out, I hope he has a good nose to sniff it out?
I think rules are rules and now we are going to change it due to the fact that Doug brought out the fact that every one at BP knew about the facts about tires that was run for years?
I guess its called track gossip, because even I heard about it.
Change the rules first and then we race, because the way it is right now is not going to do any good.
I think we need a Lawyer in the house to look over the facts before we make rules or new rules?
But what do I know?

Nesta

[HarV Wallbanger III]

Yes I have bought Alpha tires from Lenore and Kelly as well from Jim as well.

[dougmatthes]

Doug, Alpha Piranha tires have been available behind the counter at Buena Park for over a year. I personally have bought them from Lenore.

Your right, I'm too focused on the King track tires...Alpha Piranha's were available today.

[Bryan Warmack]

What about JK 8703 Wonder?

[68Caddy]

Sorry Bryan, they are Illegal.


Nesta

[Bryan Warmack]

What if I was lucky enough to get the Alpha Wonders the day of the race and wanted to cut them off and put them on the JK plastic hubs which are available and from which I have removed the tires. If someone watched while I mounted my own with available tires on available hubs would this be legal? I'm talking about fronts here.

[redbackspyder]

You are a malcontent who should be shot ! Next, we will be looking at who you associate with ?? Tom McClintock , where are you ? Next we will be looking at where your 12 tooth pinions came from

[Keith Tanaka]

As usual the banter here on Slotblog goes way beyond reason on a topic which has not been a big D3 issue until this week.
Unfortunately, this particular tire issue would not be a problem at all if everyone had been listening to Paul repeat many, many times over the last several years what the D3 policy (and not a posted rule) would be for legal tires. Some D3 racers have either "selective" memory on this topic or enjoy "not" following Paul's repeated ruling on tires.

Anyway, in order to be as fair as possible to those who participate in this year's Checkpoint Cup, here's what the D3 ruling (and currently not posted in the D3 rules) will be for the Checkpoint:

"To reiterate what Paul Sterrett has stated many, many times at BP and directly to many racers at BP over the last several years, you can use tires that are available for sale over the counter at BP (except speed rubber and speed rubber "like" tires - produced/sold by several vendors).

Since the Checkpoint starts this Friday, we will only allow those tires currently in stock or to be available at BP later this week (Wednesday or Thursday) . The following tires are allowed for the Checkpoint: JK tires, Kelly "intimidator", Alpha "Green" Piranhas and Alpha "Orange" Wonder medium tires. Other tires will not be allowed for the Checkpoint since they will not be available to all racers prior to and during the Checkpoint.

Of course, this means that some racers will complain, but in order to be fair to everyone, we need to have a ruling which will satisfy the vast majority of racers. The JK tires in particular have been the tire of choice at BP for D3 racing and they are in stock (in quantity). The Alpha Wonder medium tires are a recent trend (at least on the west coast) and the ones recently ordered (arrive Wed. or Thurs. at BP) will be allowed. It wouldn't be fair to 90% of the racers (who use JK's) to suddently allow any tire being sold by distributors or manufacturers and not currently available at BP.

You can bitch all you want, but Paul has been adamant about the tire issue since D3 began in 2006. We don't want racers using tires which are not currently available at BP to become an issue at the Checkpoint. After this year's race, we'll take another look at the tire situation and determine if any changes are needed.

D3 has always been about supporting the local raceway. Although there are many other tires on the market, we want to support BP by only using tires available over the counter at BP.

Keith

[Dave Larsen]

The heck with my "WARN STATUS BAR".... I will always tell it as I see it no matter what! This won't change the fact that I'm still comming down to BP to participate in the 2011 "CHECKPOINT"..... That's right. I'm a participant in this "GIG"


This need's to be said right here and now! As a "OUT OF TOWNER" slot racer that has read the rules set fouth by "WHO EVER" is in charge of "D-3" racing at BP? I've looked the other way when it came to the enforcememt of rules (that are basic) when I came down there to spend my time with my friends and race my ride around the track. You bet....I've watched a so called "racer" tell the "Race Director" to "F" OFF when told by the "Race Director" that his ride had to be removed from the track and be fixed before it could re-enter the race at hand.

The so called "racer" still told the "Race Director" to "F" OFF repetitively until the "Race Director" turned the power off.... Not once .... But twice.... To restore order to the race at hand (A Big D-3 Race, I was turn marshaling the "DEAD MAN" and the DIRECTOR/PRESIDENT of "D-3" did/said nothing)... He just kept racing.Purely a lack of leadership on his part in my eyes.

Again, another BIG "D-3" race where I had the luxury of hooking up my controller between two "racers" that were still arguing about the last heat. The "F" bombs became rampant from the "racer" to right of me directed to the "racer" on my left. I turned and asked the "racer" on my right to stop the "F" bombs.... There's children present here (A Cub Scout Troop with their Mothers) for a mil a second in my head I wanted to stuff the "racer" on my right head's right into the track because of his behavior and total disrespect for the patrons of BP. Again, the DIRECTOR/PRESIDENT of "D-3" said/did nothing about it. Again purely another lack of leadership/direction in this "OUT OF TOWNER'S" eye's.

The jest of my post is just this....Who ever is the DIRECTOR/PRESIDENT of "D-3" racing down south, need's to stop with the "Smoke & Mirior" gig when it comes to the rules, and proper racing manners. New rules or revisions of a said old rule(s) are to be dealt with at the end of a racing season and before the next racing season begins.... Not Five days before a race.... Good God.... Just think for a second how foolish you, the DIRECTOR'S/PRESIDENT'S of "D-3" racing are looking here on the internet to the rest of the slot racing world.

The "D-3" tire rule as I read it .... States..... Tire width maximum and tire diameter minimum and that's it. Just maybe the DIRECTOR'S/PRESIDENT'S will read the rules set fourth by themselve's and a post like this ....

Dave Larsen, or any other racer mounting your own rubber on whatever wheels, I am sorry but you will apparently have to use tires purchased from the raceway for this event.

.....Would never have been posted...... But then again, you just never know..... Now do you


As always,

The Vitter......"A EVIL BUCK$ RACING TYPE OF GUY"

[Ron Hershman]

???

I'm coming into this late obviously. Since I wasn't going to attend, I didn't see a need to keep up with pre-race bs. Now I read that speed rubber is illegal? We're just starting up retro Can-Am racing again in Texas, using D3 rules, and I told a guy that speed rubber was OK 'cause the published rules don't outlaw it. Very disappointing that unpublished rules exist. Any other bon mots out there waiting to trap the unwary?

Posted 25 July 2009 - 09:02 PM
To all D3 racers everywhere:

As of today, July 25, 2009, the use of any tires such as manufactured by Kelly Racing, Alpha, JK, Koford, B-52, Proformance, as well as any and all makes, by the trade names of Speed Rubber, Bulldog, Zipp, or any other names, that contain ingredients such as silicone, urethane, or any compound that affects and alters track conditions for other racers using natural rubber compounds is forbidden.

This decision was taken by the D3 newly-formed Board of Directors after tests were conducted that led to the banning of such tires.
These tests proved without a single doubt that such tires are detrimental to D3 Racing, in that they penalize a racer following another using such tires after a lane change twice, the first time as the racer must "clean" the lane for a full heat and may lose as much as .5" per lap or more, then does not benefit from that lane clean-up, allowing the next racer a great advantage now that the lane is back to acceptable condition.

D3 invites any and all tire manufacturers to submit their offerings for approval, as a listing of what is legal will be established in the same manner as that of other components such as chassis parts, kits, motors and bodies. A provisional listing of approved tires will be published on the official D3 website as soon as possible. Samples must be sent to Board of Directors Vice President Mike Steube C/O Buena Park Raceway.

D3 racers not using such tires as described above do not have to worry and need changing nothing.

D3 racers who have been using said tires can no longer do so.

The penalty for using such tires in ANY D3 class, including presentation of a car so fitted at tech inspection, will be an immediate exclusion from the event. A repeat will mean permanent exclusion from D3 racing.

Signed on behalf of the Board of Directors:

Philippe de Lespinay
Secretary

[Mr Dynamic]

I love this thread! All Checkpoints now converge on BPR!

See you on the other side! Mindless Wretches...
Captn Zombie- Outre

[Ron Hershman]

Noose, I do not know. I have never personally seen any Thunder Rubber, but Paul has apparently tested it and according to him, the guy following a car thus fitted in the next racing segment has to "clean the lane" again. I use Wonder Rubber tires, and they do not leave a film as far as I know. I am TOLD by others that Thunder Rubber is Wonder Rubber under another name, and TOLD that it is not true. I simply do not know. So please do not shoot the messenger here, I only carry the message.

I KNOW NOTHING!!!!!!

[TSR]

Ron,
Thanks for posting that (both posts). Indeed it has been a while since Paul banned the use of speed rubber. If you do know any better regarding that other rubber (the Thunder Rubber), please do tell. I actually have not a clue since I have never seen a set of it, and what variations there might be of it.

As Keith posted, if more precisions are warranted for tire use, it will be added into the rules to make sure that no one not paying attention can claim innocence. The only true innocents are the ones starting their own organizations and possibly unaware of the tire regulations since indeed, no effort was made to add it to said printed regulations.

Dave, what does the bad behavior of certain racers have to do with the use of certain tires? If you wish to comment on bad behavior, should you not consider your own in that little disaster of a retro organization you ran a couple years ago? Finger pointing and wagging to "Who ever is the DIRECTOR/PRESIDENT of "D-3" racing down south" while proclaiming " I'm still comming down to BP to participate in the 2011 "CHECKPOINT" is a bit of a hypocritical statement in your case, is it not?

So please let me propose the following here:

1/ Retro racing and specifically D3 as it is called, was created and established for us all folks who are a bit nostalgic of the old days and are a bit dismayed of what slot cars and racing at commercial raceways had become. Apparently, many others thought like us because there is quite a bit of such racing in the country and in other nations now. And guess what? There is very little controversy in D3, but much of it is and has been engineered by people not even RACING in D3.

2/ In any form of racing, you will always have people pushing the envelope, over-competitive and wanting to win at all costs, including that of intimidation and cheating the system in some ways. The D3 management, specifically Paul and Keith as it stands right now, with the help of a few others, has always tried to be as fair as possible to such excess because if someone pushes the envelope to that extent, it matters little as the person in question shows to be his own worse enemy. There is no money to win, only modest bragging rights, and if such persons want it that badly, who the hell cares. The vast majority of others could not care less.

3/ The vast majority of retro racers are here for the fun of it, the personal enjoyment and self fulfillment of personal progress and the camaraderie and friendship of other racers. There is simply too much BS ADDED to this by some who do not have much of an understanding of what it is all about or are not even involved in our form of racing.

Now back to the tire thing: for the past 4 years, Paul has always and clearly said the same thing about tires and the ones allowed to use. If you wish to race in D3, you have to accept it, whatever you agree with it or not. You can do it graciously and do the best you can with what is allowed. You don't like it and keep bitching about it? DON'T COME, there will be more oxygen for others to breathe.

I had great fun Saturday and Sunday with meeting my friends, testing my hopeless piles of cars and generally enjoying the day. Please don't come to ruin my fun by creating false controversies, thank you in advance.

[Noose]

You state if you wish to race in D3, etc. but doesn't that mean if you wish to race in D3 at BPR since other areas running D3, like Texas, may not wish to sell the tires that BPR sells for whatever reasons.


As for Thunder Rubber, I already said I conducted several tests on this rubber on both the hard and medium and it is NOT speed rubber.

[Ron Hershman]

Ron,
Thanks for posting that (both posts). Indeed it has been a while since Paul banned the use of speed rubber. If you do know any better regarding that other rubber (the Thunder Rubber), please do tell. I actually have not a clue since I have never seen a set of it, and what variations there might be of it.

Thunder Rubber IS NOT Speed Rubber. Thunder is close to Wonder. I have ran with against guys using Thunder many times and NEVER had a problem hooking up or getting traction while following those guys in a race.

Now knowing racers....I am sure some have probably ran Speed rubber in the BP D3 races and claimed it was Thunder or something else in the past. This kind of explains the comment about Paul following someone running Thunder rubber and having traction problems while following them. Sounds like someone was running Speed rubber and calling it something else.

[TSR]

Noose, yes, I am strictly addressing the racing at BPR for now. As far as other D3 organizations budding or existing, the recommendation is the same: use what is available behind the counter at your local raceway EXCEPT for so-called Speed Rubber that leaves a deposit on the track. If you have tires preferences, have your local raceway order what you like from their distributor. Takes 3 days to get.

As far as the Thunder Rubber, I simply am not competent to respond to that because I simply do not know. Paul tested some and there are apparently some issues. I repeat, I simply don't know but I take your word for it, the best I can do is to communicate this to Paul and maybe more testing is needed. Is it possible that Wonder Rubber also leaves some trail behind them? Anyway it looks like it will not be allowed at least for next weekend...
At this time the track conditions are loose, so Wonder Rubber would not do to good anyway... you need stickier stuff!

Now knowing racers....I am sure some have probably ran Speed rubber in the BP D3 races and claimed it was Thunder or something else in the past. This kind of explains the comment about Paul following someone running Thunder rubber and having traction problems while following them. Sounds like someone was running Speed rubber and calling it something else.

Could well be...

[Bob Chaney]

The Checkpoint Cup, will be my first trip to BPR. I will thereby be racing under "SoCal D3" rules for the first time.

In preparation for The Checkpoint, I have carefully read the posted rules as found on the SoCal D3 website. I have also reviewed previous race reports, and studied the tech sheets of each entry. By this method, I have prepared my entry, and procured what appears to be "the tire of choice" for competition, even though that tire is not normally stocked at my local raceway.

I will not make a big entrance, or a big impression at The Checkpoint. I will not be the fasted qualifier, nor will I be contending for the win as heat eight of the 'A' Main begins.

I hope to see a few of my slot car heroes, have a chance to meet them, and perhaps even talk to them for a moment or two.

I want to be able to say I competed in the event without impeding anyone's progress, and without suffering knee-knock during qualifications.

Anything beyond this will be "gravy"

As a point of order however, in this whole "what is legal at the Checkpoint" debate": Everyone attending is not aware of each individual spoken/understood/unwritten rule practiced by the sponsoring organization persuant to their monthly competition (and apparently this is not limited to just me).

I think we are all ready and willing to abide by the rules, but it is only fair that the rules are presented in such a way as to be readily available for all to understand. Those rules need to be the ones that are available for public consumption (and there is apparently at least one set of rule caveats which are not).

The Checkpoint Cup is not your "regular" monthly meeting of D3 racers at BPR.

By its very name, it is the Premier Event in the retro racing world. Whether intended or not, it is perhaps the Premier Event in all of slot car racingdom.

One does not pull into tech at Daytona to find out that Pirelli is not on the approved tire list for the 500. And while that may be a bit far fetched as an example, it is certainly pertinent in the recent thread of debate here.

The discretion of the "race director/inspector/poobah" being the final word is intended as a decision point for the exception. If the same decision is made more than once, it is no longer an exception. It is a rule, and should be documented as such.

Without the written rule, an organization opens itself to scrutiny and heated debate about its procedures and their intent (such as the creation of an unfair advantage, or quick elimination of competitors deemed unworthy).

The only place that tires are mentioned in the D3 CanAm rules, is in the dimensional restrictions. For bodies, there is a list of specific brands, part numbers and styles allowed; there is no wiggle room, or question about which body I am allowed to run; or what "size" of tire I am allowed to use.

The published rules also, already include exception references to facilities (BPR) and events (The Checkpoint), although these are related to motors, not bodies or tires.

For future consideration, I would propose that this hidden rule issue be addressed for tires, and any other area of vehicle construction, presentation and competition, in which the spoken/intended/interpretation of a rule might not be present.

Meanwhile, I am looking forward to my 25 minutes of track time at the Checkpoint Cup CanAm race on Saturday (conservatively priced at $90 / minute). I expect smiles and high fives all-round!

[Bryan Warmack]

For years now I have been running many tires I have purchased over the internet from various sources. EVERY SINGLE tire I have ever run has been nothing trick and potentially and READILY available at Buena Park in a couple of days from several distributors.

No one has ever said a single word to me about this being illegal and everyone I know has purchased some tires at one time or another at places other than Buena Park.

Since we are trying to clear this up I have a couple more questions. Should Buena Park be expected to carry every single tire combination by every single manufacturer and if so in what quantities?

If they are temporarily out of stock of a certain brand on a given day, does it make that particular tire illegal that specific day?

Where does it end?

[TSR]

Where does it end?

Pitchforks? Torches? Where is the castle with the Evil Paul?