209 replies to this topic

[MantaRay]

Rick......the "elite" part...leave me out.....lol

[John Streisguth]

I'm at a loss as to why the current 4002 Chinese motor is relegated to Stock Car duty when it is a inexpensive alternative to the $50+ PD motor yet nearly equal in performance. It would be a great addition to the Cam Am and F1 racing for those on a budget and willing to take the risk of a motor cook off. When it was a motor with 80 turns of wire it was legal in a class where it couldn't come close to competing and now it has the balls and a fair chance of winning and it's not allowed in the class because it's an inexpensive motor. If you don't believe that read back through some of the post on other threads where the idea of a PD motor getting beat by a 4002C was tabooed solely because of the price difference.

John
Your response in the above post is exactly what I've heard over the years and the reason why Retro hasn't grown even bigger. The idea that someone may question a certain area of Retro invokes a response that "if you don't like it then go race somewhere else". If I had listened to that absurd response IRRA RETRO would still have the same person in charge of motor tech. However, since I'm so hard headed and refused to give up on the idea of shining a light on an unequal playing field after 6 years steps where finally taken to cure the problem and I was totally vindicated. One other thing. I have NEVER EVER heard that statement from ANY OTHER slot car racing organization. Not the USRA racers, ISRA racers or anyone one else. It seems to be the only way IRRA racers can deflect suggested changes in the motor program. Agreeing with the status quo just to get along and not upset the apple cart is not in a racers nature. Questioning why something is, why can't we change it, and can we make it better, is. Look at the chassis evolution over the years. Why has the motor program remained stagnate?

Fred, I don't agree with the motor rules just to "get along"...the motor rules is one of the reasons I DO race retro.  If we went to building motors, or had new motors approved every year, I would quit and spend my money and time doing other things.  I don't get why so many people say "retro is great, but they really need to change this or that".  If there was such an issue with the motor rules, retro would not still be growing.  You don't race retro because you don't like the rules..I race retro because I DO like the rules.  I don't race USRA because I don't like the rules, I don't race ISRA because they race primarily on flat tracks.

 

So since your have been "vindicated", will we see you racing retro in the near future? Or is there still some other "issue"?  Plenty of people think the water is just fine in this pool, why do you insist on peeing in it? 

[Fast Freddie]

John I will probably never race Retro except for Retro Pro mainly because I'm allowed to build my motor in that class. I have no fear of racing against other racers who also can build their motors. I relish the challenge. I have nothing against those who race Retro and I would like very much to participate but will not solely because of the motor rules. I have raced in sealed/unserviceable motor classes before and found that I just don't like it. If a raceway would pop up in my area and all they ran was Retro then I may get all my PDs sealed and go racing but I wouldn't travel to do so. Retro racing is very successful and very good for our hobby but not my cup of tea.

I hope that what ever motor is approved isn't faster and cheaper than a PD, if it is it will most likely be relegated to something other than Can Am and F1. By the way don't PDs have 75 turns of wire? Why is 65 turns the new norm? Are PDs going to 65 turns in the future?

[MSwiss]

 Man up and order an X12 from Koford or PS for $65 & make yourself a simple wire choke.  That way everyone has more than enough motor and slow / dud / no availability, motor argument would be a thing of the past.   

 

 

 Voska has a solution that has been brought up before by over powering the cars to the point, the motors are never in question. Really would be valid too, except the races would be just horrible crash fests for all but the very elite racer.................

This has been a great thread.

 

For you Seinfeld  fans, this is like Festivus with the "Airing of Grievances" at the dinner table.

 

Rob,

Like Rick mentioned, this idea has been thought of before.

 

Most recently, Chris Radisch brought it up on Facebook.

 

When I first got on the internet regularly, in about 2003, I brought it up on OWH, after reading one too many,

"I'm getting out horsepowered" complaints in reference to USRA Div. II racing.

 

G20 arms with a choke was my idea back then.

 

I'm sure other racers have thought of the same concept, before and after.

 

But like Rick added at the end of his post, it sounds like recipe for sloppy racing.

 

The post I thought of earlier, before I had access to a real keyboard was something like;

 

It'll hold up the tech lines too long, making every entrant recite the following oath;

"I swear on my honor as a Retro racer, to only go down on the choke to a level where my horsepower will not exceed my ability

to keep my car in the slot, because I know if I don't, it will create more problems, then have solved, by giving racers,

essentially, unlimited horsepower". 

[Fast Freddie]

Fred, the Asian PD wasn't outlawed because of price, it was solely because it was out of spec. Had the revision been brought to 75 turns, instead of 60, the motor might have been legal across the board. The issue was that after several years and everyone having American PD motors, to obsolete them would have been suicide for retro. The Asian arm is like comparing a Group 12 to a Challenger...............

Rick
The 4002c motor never had 75 turns of CNC wound wire. It was always 80 turns that looked like the were wound on a sewing machine bobbin. Is the new 60 turn 4002c that much of a threat to the PD motors? If it isn't why not run it? Seems like it was OK to run when it was a fishing weight with more copper than a Chinese 16D, or was that the idea? A cheap motor that couldn't possibly win but filled a slot on the motor list. If that was the real intended purpose the you succeeded. One more thing. The new 4002C wasn't out of spec enough to completely remove it from the motor list but just enough to not let it run against those $50+ motors.

[MSwiss]

 
I hope that what ever motor is approved isn't faster and cheaper than a PD, if it is it will most likely be relegated to something other than Can Am and F1. By the way don't PDs have 75 turns of wire? Why is 65 turns the new norm? Are PDs going to 65 turns in the future?

Fred,

Why don't you go ahead and read the whole thread?

 

The 65T turn of 30AWG(actually metric euivalent) spec is for the FK's.

 

That been the Falcon 7 and TSR D3 spec since day one.

Despite being a hotter wind, with the particular's of the FK motor, including it's vastly inferior brush and spring set-up,

it's proven to be no superior to a 75T31 American Puppy Dog.

[MSwiss]

Rick
The 4002c motor never had 75 turns of CNC wound wire. It was always 80 turns that looked like the were wound on a sewing machine bobbin. Is the new 60 turn 4002c that much of a threat to the PD motors? If it isn't why not run it? Seems like it was OK to run when it was a fishing weight with more copper than a Chinese 16D, or was that the idea? A cheap motor that couldn't possibly win but filled a slot on the motor list. If that was the real intended purpose the you succeeded. One more thing. The new 4002C wasn't out of spec enough to completely remove it from the motor list but just enough to not let it run against those $50+ motors.

First of all, the 4002c or 4002C is a motor with an American wound, 55T30 Big Dog arm.

 

The motor you speak of is a 4002.

 

Yes, the 60T Proslot 4002 Chinese arm motor was a threat to the PD motors. 

 

Guys I spoke to on the phone said they "had" to run them at XYZ race, despite reliability concerns.

 

"It was the fastest thing I had".

 

With this becoming common, guys saying they were metering much lower than their PD's,

and finally someone sending me an arm to dewind,

the whole IRRA™ finally became aware the motor had been switched from 80T to 60T.

[Gator Bob]

Mike, do you know if the 4002 is 60 turns of 31 AWG or the metric equivalent of 30 AWG?

[W. J. Dougherty]

Mike, it has puzzled me for a long time just how did the specs of the 4002 arm got changed from 80 turns to 60 turns?

[kvanpelt]

This has been a great thread.
 
For you Seinfeld  fans, this is like Festivus with the "Airing of Grievances" at the dinner table.
 
Rob,
Like Rick mentioned, this idea has been thought of before.
 
Most recently, Chris Radisch brought it up on Facebook.
 
When I first got on the internet regularly, in about 2003, I brought it up on OWH, after reading one too many,
"I'm getting out horsepowered" complaints in reference to USRA Div. II racing.
 
G20 arms with a choke was my idea back then.
 
I'm sure other racers have thought of the same concept, before and after.
 
But like Rick added at the end of his post, it sounds like recipe for sloppy racing.
 
The post I thought of earlier, before I had access to a real keyboard was something like;
 
It'll hold up the tech lines too long, making every entrant recite the following oath;
"I swear on my honor as a Retro racer, to only go down on the choke to a level where my horsepower will not exceed my ability
to keep my car in the slot, because I know if I don't, it will create more problems, then have solved, by giving racers,
essentially, unlimited horsepower".

If qualifying were laps and sections, it would tend to group racers of similar abilities.

[MSwiss]

Mike, do you know if the 4002 is 60 turns of 31 AWG or the metric equivalent of 30 AWG?

No.

[MSwiss]

Mike, do you know if the 4002 is 60 turns of 31 AWG or the metric equivalent of 30 AWG?

I'll try again.

No.

It should be the metric equivalent of 31 gauge.

Why would you bring up 30 gauge?

[Tim Neja]

I have to digress a little here to you Tim. When you guys race in the handout situation, IIRC, you are permitted to buy 5 motors for the event? At $12 each, some are spending $60 to race one event, which to me is not that frugal. I understand you can use them up in practice and "other" races, but that's a lot to use up. Appearances up front don't always reflect the reality of a situation. This horse about which is better has been beat to death and back with no agreement to what is the best way. It would impossible to make identical performing motors of ANY kind, if this were true then I would be rich because everyong would but their motors from me, because I know the lightning in the bottle trick..LOL

 

Voska has a solution that has been brought up before by over powering the cars to the point, the motors are never in question. Really would be valid too, except the races would be just horrible crash fests for all but the very elite racer.................

Where this WHOLE argument breaks down very BADLY is your assumption that you don't need 5 more Puppy Dogs to do the SAME THING!! Because THEY are just as junk and variable---you just start with a MUCH more expensive motor--but have to go through the SAME gyrations to find any winners!!! And I use ALL my FK's because I can WIN with them on our flat track races!! I don't need the "MAX" horsepower that the King track demands!! So yes--I use ALL the motors I get at our TWO hand out motor events on the year--in fact--I have to buy MORE just to get through the season!! It's STILL FAR more economical--than starting the "arms" race again with MORE expensive re-buiidable motors!! I've talked with LOT'S of your people in the east--and a LOT of them have MORE than 20 PD's in their stable--trying to find the "magic bullet"!! So don't tell me how their soo economical!! It's just another MOTOR WAR!!   I"m really tired of hearing how ONE motor can always replace 5 so easily!! It's just NOT TRUE!!!

 

And as far as OVERPOWERING the cars--that's not a very good Idea--because what newbie racer is going to get involved in that kind of racing!! We're trying to GROW the hobby--not make it an "elitist" class for racers only!!!!  We already have plenty of "crash fests" from guys that are still learning to get a car around the track--it's supposed to be good for ALL slot racers--not just the very few talented racers that can drive the wheels off anything.  Go race Euro and and any other class you like--- leave Retro to the mass's!!   Enjoy

[Rick]

Well, love the system or hate it. This has been one stability that slot cars has been missing for decades. One motor, one manufacturer and the motor you raced in 2008 is still the current motor in 2013. I don't see this changing in the near future. which is not a good thing but a GREAT thing!

 

As far as FK motors are concerned, I don't really care how this plays out. I race Coupes very little compared to CA and F1 and then many times it will be a hand out motor. I stopped racing stock cars when the Asian motors were made legal and haven't entered a race since last year in Chicago. I may have to cave and get a couple refurbed Asian motors just for kicks....................

[Rick]

Where this WHOLE argument breaks down very BADLY is your assumption that you don't need 5 more Puppy Dogs to do the SAME THING!! Because THEY are just as junk and variable---you just start with a MUCH more expensive motor--but have to go through the SAME gyrations to find any winners!!! And I use ALL my FK's because I can WIN with them on our flat track races!! I don't need the "MAX" horsepower that the King track demands!! So yes--I use ALL the motors I get at our TWO hand out motor events on the year--in fact--I have to buy MORE just to get through the season!! It's STILL FAR more economical--than starting the "arms" race again with MORE expensive re-buiidable motors!! I've talked with LOT'S of your people in the east--and a LOT of them have MORE than 20 PD's in their stable--trying to find the "magic bullet"!! So don't tell me how their soo economical!! It's just another MOTOR WAR!!   I"m really tired of hearing how ONE motor can always replace 5 so easily!! It's just NOT TRUE!!!

Tim, I have raced the same PD motor in the same car for 8 races, almost an entire season!  I think that is pretty economical. At least I am happy. It was then sent off for refurb and ready to race again with new BB and do another 8 races................

[Gator Bob]

I'll try again.

No.

It should be the metric equivalent of 31 gauge.

Why would you bring up 30 gauge?

 

Just thinking .. because that's what is in the FK's and they come from China.... ? 

[Tim Neja]

Tim, I have raced the same PD motor in the same car for 8 races, almost an entire season!  I think that is pretty economical. At least I am happy. It was then sent off for refurb and ready to race again with new BB and do another 8 races................

That's great---how many wins/ TQ'S?  8 races? And you only bought one and done?  That's quite unusual but we ALSO have lot's of people that only buy 1 FK motor and run it!! They can get 3 or 4 races out of it if the run the King once and the rest on the flat track.  I've run the SAME motor in my Coupe car on the flat track for 5 races before I changed it. And I made the podium 3 out of those 5.  Other times I didn't hit the setup perfectly--and didn't.  But the same motor was in the car for all of those races!

  So two motors-- 8 races--$22.00. Not bad using your same logic. You don't HAVE to buy 5 motors either!!

[Rick]

I never said one HAD to buy 5 but some do.

 

The motor made every A Main it raced in and podiumed in several. NO, of course I don't have just one, but after 6-7 years of racing retro I surely would have more, Heck I got a few last year at a hand out race because two racers race out of my box. You guys should try the Asian PD motor, works great on low power and not a bad buy at about the same price as an FK motor. Throw a table out and ask the racers to choose an Asian PD or a TSR motor.

 

When someone starts bitching about the cost of their hobby, usually means they are on the way out anyway.

 

BTW, how many FK have you bought in the last 5 years?..................

[Gator Bob]

FWI

 

AWG to metric Parameter Calculator

 

BTW, Run the temp/resistance ... Proof you should be running the Swiss PD wire connectors and the Trinity heatsinks.

[Tim Neja]

Well the deal is--you guys that LOVE PD's--always say ONE motor lasts all season!! But NO ONE buys only ONE motor!! So I hate that argument!! I LIKE the fact that the FK's wear out!! That way EVERYONE has to get a new motor in the shuffle and NO ONE can spend major $$$ to try to find a dominant one!! Just enjoy your PD's---we enjoy our FK's!! And If I come out there to race with ya---I'll buy a couple of PD's to try!! Until then---just enjoy retro racing --- I do!!

[MSwiss]

 

Just thinking .. because that's what is in the FK's and they come from China.... ? 

I'm pretty sure they have more than one wire size in China. LOL

 

I doubt it would be a 30 gauge equivalent or why would Dan make the American version, which came after, with 31 gauge ?

 

If he did, the American arm would probably certainly be slower, unless of course there was radical difference in the 2 blank designs. 

[John Streisguth]

Hey Tim, two things: except for the King track at modelville in Mass., every track I have raced on is 13.5-13.8 volts, so the FKs do not last for us like they do at the ONE raceway you guys race at (at least to my knowledge..do you race at any raceways besides BPR?). So that's not a fair comparison.  Also, one thing you are probably not aware of is that PD motors will run differently at each track, and sometimes even in different cars!  Case in point: a new motor ran so-so in a Can-Am car at the Retropalooza race a few weeks back.  I put it in an F1 car just to test which chassis I wanted to run, and it turned out to be one of the fastest motors I had. 

I have a total of 13 motors I have accumulated over 5 years of racing.  Yes, there have been a few "dogs", so I relegate them to practice and "loaners" to new racers.  One went up in smoke.  I race approximately 26 races a year that use these motors so that's approximately 125 races. How many FK motors have you purchased in the last 5 years? Or maybe I should ask, how many FK motors would you have purchased for 125 races?  I have run almost an equal number of races that use the FK motors, and I have purchased (on average) one new motor for each race.  So I have spent roughly double the amount on FK motors as I have PDs (not including refurbs, which on average I do once a year).  Right now every PD motor I have purchased (minus the toasted one) is sitting in my box, ready to race.  Every FK motor I have purchased is in a landfill. 

[John Streisguth]

Tim, your last line is the real key....enjoy retro racing!  I do it for fun, not a trophy.  We're all looking forward to the annual enduro this coming Saturday, it's a blast.

 

Hmmm...I wonder if an FK motor would last 6 hours????    (all in fun...)

[DOCinCanton]

AWG wire size 30: 0.0100" dia, 0.255mm dia

AWG wire size 31: 0.0893" dia, 0.227mm dia

Metric size 2.2: 0.22mm dia = 0.00866" dia,

So, you can see that if us Americans under our English system request AWG wire size #31, we would (hopefully) get metric wire size 2.2.

[redbackspyder]

 

I never said one HAD to buy 5 but some do.
 
The motor made every A Main it raced in and podiumed in several. NO, of course I don't have just one, but after 6-7 years of racing retro I surely would have more, Heck I got a few last year at a hand out race because two racers race out of my box. You guys should try the Asian PD motor, works great on low power and not a bad buy at about the same price as an FK motor. Throw a table out and ask the racers to choose an Asian PD or a TSR motor.
 
When someone starts bitching about the cost of their hobby, usually means they are on the way out anyway.
 
BTW, how many FK have you bought in the last 5 years?..................

 Rick, are you talking about the ASIAN PUPPY DOG, the motor that nobody new about in the IRRA for a number of Years ??? The ones that then got rebalanced and blue printed, like Chris R. spoke of sometime back ? ? ?

Just checking, because I just wanted to make sure, the motor that was later banned in all but IRRA Stock cars, what is the actual product number , if you have it ? ? ?