112 replies to this topic

[MSwiss]

Any ideas to rewind one John?! To see what can be done!

I'm not sure this a job for John, but he's certainly welcome to do whatever he wants.
 
The motor JK is marketing has a bazillion turns of wire.

[SlotStox#53]

Was just an idea, Mike, seeing as how wild rewinders tend to rewind anything in sight! If it powers a slot car, rewind it!

[MSwiss]

I would have enjoyed being part of figuring this all out Paul, but I'm sure Mike and Jerry have access to waaaaaay more developement than I could muster. Without ever having screwed around with this, it seems like it would be very cool for some applications, but that the advantage gearing provides... both mechanical AND with fine-tuning a car for a specific track and power (ie: a tooth here and a tooth there) isn't going anywhere.

 
True. I don't see this as a application for super-duper serious (fast) racing, certainly not within the confines of $12.95 retail motor.

I see this more as something economical, for applications with limited space, and what Michael Rigsby pointed out in post #4, providing a way younger kids can start working on and building their own slot cars.
 

There's also chassis dynamics and for some cars, just having the motor that far back will be a disadvantage. This is basically a super-radical "sidewinder" and it seems that anglewinders long-ago proved more useful.

 
Anglewinders developed only because of clearance issues with the motor can and axle, predicated by the use of smaller tires which requires smaller spur gears for clearance.

When I won the Nats in G27 in 2000(?), my car was a full sidewinder. At times during a quick motor change, it might of even been a reverse/negative anglewinder. LOL.
 

I could see using a shorter (like a Hawk!) motor to allow more tire if that were needed (seems not!), and it wouldn't be difficult to even go to a 3/32" drill blank shaft. Although as Mike says, the Eurosport guys use 2mm axles out there on the bleeding edge of technology and they seem to work for them. I guess that the motors are wound for lotsa torque and far lower RPMs (obviously)... a bunch of skinny wire and "maybe" a different lam.

In the development of it, I of course brought up going to a 3/32" shaft, but it was nixed due to tooling costs. That's not to say if it this ever gets big, it might be considered.

[Cheater]

Since a great deal of discussion has blossomed in the post about the new JK Direct Drive cars in The Parts Counter, where long discussion unrelated to the ads is discouraged, I've split it off into a thread here in the General Technical forrum.

[A. J. Hoyt]

Jerry was in a perfect position to do this. He has trusted chassis design/tooling experts he has worked with before, has his own Chinese motor manufacturer connections (you just need to know what to ask for and they will make a production shift of 40,000 units of ANYTHING that does not require significant retooling, like a 3/32" armature/axle shaft would), beginning to end production tire manufacturing capacity (for the 2mm axle, or, maybe, he just made adapter tubes like the Retro crown gears have!!!), a body painting division with very desirable body styles and paint schemes, and the distribution network in place.
 
This is genius! Watching the movie of the car going around the Chicagoland flat track, it looks like the car goes plenty fast to me!
 
I have boxes (hundreds and hundreds) of FK style motors I "inherited" from a former employer (were heading for a land fill) that were not well suited for slot cars - just topped out too soon but lots of torque. I was considering using two spur gears that would be closer to 1:1 ratio to see what that would do. If you are at 1:1, you might as well just discard the gears and go direct drive! Like I said, it's genius and I am amazed we have never seen this before!
 
Good job, Jerry and all who were involved in this. It looks like it could be the ONLY way to go for rental cars.
 
A suggestion - the track owner should order bodies in all of the standard lane colors and then host a huge round robin "IROC" style race for everyone local to come and help break in the cars while they are still new. Charge a small entry fee of $10 (remember, you are not using up your own car) and, if you get 25 racers, that it $250 towards the initial purchase of the cars. At individual list prices, that covers the cost of four cars, maybe all of them if there is a significant commercial discount!
 
Or, better, a track owner could put a quiver of these "IROC" cars aside and run this race once a month!
 
I would certainly participate but it only works well while the cars are new and well matched! Sounds like a hoot to me!
 
Keep it in the slot,
 
AJ

[Tim Neja]

Hey Mike or Jerry,

Please send me ONE car to evaluate and try on the four "home tracks" we have here in Orange County!! We have four very nice routed tracks for 1/32 scale cars that we race on here - one is mine in the avatar!!

If the car works well, you may sell a few dozen of them to our "home" track guys!!

[Rick Davis]

Wow - everything old is new again...

Tried this with a DC-65 about 50 years ago, wasn't fast and got real warm.

I like to see out of the box thinking.

[MSwiss]

Hey Mike or Jerry,Please send me ONE car to evaluate and try on the four "home tracks"...

I'll PM you when I get on a regular keyboard.

[redbackspyder]

Mike and Jerry,   Is there a provision for where a magnet could be placed for home racing on home tracks ? ? ?  It seems that this car is aimed at that market, since on the West Coast, very little 1/32 racing occurs anywhere else, and as a starter car with foam tires on plastic track you are going to need a magnet for newbies....  Just a question, I am sure someone thought this out

[MSwiss]

I think the car is geared a bit more towards the routed track/non-magnet crowd.

 

But if it catches on at all, I'm sure Jerry would consider a magnet version, with a guide geared for a shallower slot.

[gascarnut]

I think the car is geared a bit more towards the routed track/non-magnet crowd..

And there was I thinking that direct drive cars had no gears...

Seriously, though, I wonder whether the 1/32 home racing crowd are ready for steel frames, stamped rubber front wheels, and vacuum-formed bodies. Apart from the SCMs that race at my track and Tim's, most other 1/32 clubs I know are totally vacu-phobic and many have also banned the TSRF frame in the past.

How wide is the frame and how much guide lead does it have? Those two things will limit its ability to be used under a lot of hardbodies.

[MSwiss]

 
How wide is the frame and how much guide lead does it have? Those two things will limit its ability to be used under a lot of hardbodies.

The chassis is not geared to be converted to hard bodies at all.

 

But the motor will provide a super compact drivetrain to convert great looking Fly and other cars that have front mounted motors and such.

[MSwiss]

 

The 1/24th prototype,slightly less cobbled together, Version 2.0, shown going around in the movies in posts # 20 and 21 of this thread.

 

To show how skinny of a tire works with the hi-bite characteristics of the direct drive.

[Dennis David]

When I get one I'll see if it will fits in a couple if cars I have.

Most modern vac bodies are not scale. That's not to say they can not be made to look beautiful but those are the exceptions.

The car doesn't interest me but the motor does.

[NSwanberg]

AJ and I have discussed this concept somewhat in the past when comparing the concept to the Parma Whisperjunk. I have always liked the idea and I know there were some direct drive slots back before the day. I think the best ap is for rentals but for that I would think a 3/32 motor shaft would be the minimum.  Right now it looks to be what I call best without a body class. Good luck with it. I hope it turns out to be that bowling ball car that slotcar racing needs.

[MSwiss]

AJ and I have discussed this concept somewhat in the past when comparing the concept to the Parma Whisperjunk. I have always liked the idea and I know there were some direct drive slots back before the day. I think the best ap is for rentals but for that I would think a 3/32 motor shaft would be the minimum.  Right now it looks to be what I call best without a body class. Good luck with it. I hope it turns out to be that bowling ball car that slotcar racing needs.

 

For a rental, I'm not sure you need a 3/32" shaft, especially if you have it in a thick , closed wheel body.

 

I ran it yesterday with a Red Fox Audi roadster. It handled too well.

 

I think if there is an application for a semi-serious racer in 1/24th, it would be using, fun, zero drag bodies like the ones shown.

 

[JohnnySlotcar]

New life for all those cheeta 7's laying around!

[HarV Wallbanger III]

"In the development of it, I of course brought up going to a 3/32" shaft, but it was nixed due to tooling costs."

 

Ya, tooling cost goes up because of the larger shaft and a new blank design would have to be used.... Problem is with that large of shaft trying to get "a bazillion" turns on the arm of the same size may be impossible because of the larger center web needed for the larger shaft ....... So a complete larger series of motor would have to be considered and that adds even more costs.... So it's not just making a new blank... at least at this point.

 

If they do have this problem then the cheapest fix would be a stronger drill blank type shaft...if not a true drill blank then a much stronger shaft and this would still allow the "bazillion turns" needed for the performance and would not cost near as much but would drive the $12.95 cost up some......

 

This is a cool idea and has legs.... The average racer does not understand how much $$ it takes in development, time and effort to think outside the box. I do think it is really more geared to commercial tracks than home tracks at least in this form because of many home market guys really hate vac bods. We race plastic chassis/ hardbody cars as well as scratch built vac bodied cars out here but many of these home racers will not run vac bods.      

[W. J. Dougherty]

Mike,

 

Just how much of the shaft was left to attach those rims to??  Hard to tell from the pic but doesn't look like much...  Also, what kind of tires are those, 87002??

 

 

Thank...

[HarV Wallbanger III]

Quality hardbody tooling molds cost BIG $$ with all that goes into them.... then X that by how many different car types, licensing costs (if any), tooling for windows and small parts etc. It takes a big $$ to go after a true home market at this point. 

[gotboostedvr6]

There are 5 pole lams available with .530 od that are holed for 2.3 mm. The lams are very thick but that wouldn't matter much.

[Dennis David]

There is a way around that. 3D print a motor pod that will fit a Slot.it or NSR chassis. Problem solved

[George Blaha]

Hey Mike,

 

In 1959 I had a figure 8 plastic track with direct drive motors in factory built slot race cars. They used 2 x1.5 dry cells for power thru 2 on/off 2 wire controllers. They were bullet proof til using the 12 volt train transformer and it smoked them and the contacts in the track real well. Congrats, glad you worked some of the bugs out. Whats old is new again!

 

George Shakey Blaha

[SlotStox#53]

There is a way around that. 3D print a motor pod that will fit a Slot.it or NSR chassis. Problem solved

Now that's a cool idea !

[TSR]

Mike and Jerry,   Is there a provision for where a magnet could be placed for home racing on home tracks ? ? ?  It seems that this car is aimed at that market, since on the West Coast, very little 1/32 racing occurs anywhere else, and as a starter car with foam tires on plastic track you are going to need a magnet for newbies....  Just a question, I am sure someone thought this out

 

Mill, simply placing a magnet on top of the steel chassis (as long as it is magnetic steel) will do the job.

I think that a direct drive slot car for home racing is a great idea. We experimented with direct-drive HO cars at Cox in the 1970s, but the available motors were simply too big for the job. Mattel used direct-drive Mabuchi HO motors in their Sizzler series and they worked well, but the cars were much larger than HO scale.

And yes, tooling for injected bodies is simply too expensive and out of reach for cottage-industry manufacturers, and a sure way to lose money if you can only produce one model.

I think that Jerry is doing it right for his market, and hope that the car will do well for him.