212 replies to this topic

[SlotStox#53]

 

Agree 100%. Almost without exception, our closest races are in the classes with our slowest motors. In NorCal, we use the obviously slowish Slick 7 Mini Brute in several classes and those races are not only closer than our classes with faster motors, they are also more fun.

 

In fact, our recent event at Fast Track Hobbies produced our closest ever race when you consider the top six racers. We had six places decided by five laps and this was with 4 1/2" inline Retro stock cars with Mini Brute motors on a flat track.

 

Now, that was fun....................just sayin'

Wow Jim , that really sounds like a FUN & CLOSE race indeed !

[Fast Freddie]

I may be going out on a limb here but I believe that every motor builder who has voiced their opinion on this thread would not "require" all racers to do the same. If a racer wants to just send their motor in for refurbishing then that would be fine. That same type of consideration should be allowed to racers who prefer to go through their motors before sending them in for refurbishing. Why is that such an evil practice? After reading some of the posts you can tell it's already been going on. Don't take my word for it.

Rick, thank you for supporting the idea of going through the motors. Every motor I took apart had end bell bushings that were not glued in and magnets that were misaligned holding the arm too low in the set up. I prefer my brushes to ride in the center of the comm.. Like Rick I like to use the magnet taps to hold the magnets tightly before I glue the magnets in. It helps the longevity of the motor to do these things.

Noose, if you feel that going through the motor before having it refurbished is not legal and cheating does that mean that Ron was cheating all along and only a few of us contested it, or was this just a shady back room deal granted by the BOD just to appease Ron. By the way just to refresh your memory I never said Ron was cheating. I just believed he had an unfair advantage, but that's not what your saying in this thread (posts #125 and #128) it looks to me like you agree he was cheating or at the very least running illegal motors unless a back room deal did exist, correct? I and I'm sure many others would love to here the explanation of why it wasn't stopped at the onset but allowed to continue until recently.

[havlicek]

From the "outside looking in", I just want to say that this racing is, and has been, a resounding success.  That means that the rules have worked to keep racers at the tracks as they stand.  There is plenty of racing for guys who want to mess with motors, and not all of it is uber-expensive.  If that's what floats a person's boat, then they should look for those classes.  It seems to me that, if enough people were asking, then other classes could always be added, but why fix what ain't broke?

 

 

 

Agree 100%. Almost without exception, our closest races are in the classes with our slowest motors. In NorCal, we use the obviously slowish Slick 7 Mini Brute in several classes and those races are not only closer than our classes with faster motors, they are also more fun .

 

Well, that shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.  The slower the motors are, the less driving is required.  Even slower motors still "could" make for even closer racing, until all the cars were full-punch all the time.  Then again, that would be just a slower version of the two-blip-wing-car-in-a-punchbowl stuff some people decry as "pointless" (at least until they try it).

 

Anyway, it's critical that sanctioned racing has an authority to set rules and that people respect those rules.  The success of this kind of racing proves that.

 

-john

[raisin27]

I think we are getting away from the original question in this post (me included). DocinCocoa asked if it is legal to open your motor and blueprint it before sending it to be refurbed. He did not ask if it should be legal.

 

Reading the rule it looks to me as if it clearly is not legal.

[Wizard Of Iz]

I think we are getting away from the original question in this post (me included). DocinCocoa asked if it is legal to open your motor and blueprint it before sending it to be refurbed. He did not ask if it should be legal.

 

Reading the rule it looks to me as if it clearly is not legal.

 

 

'Nuff said.

 

Now we can move on to the next horse.

[NJ SpeedZone]

My question is what about the "cheating"racers who have done this and now have "illegal"motors in there possession. Are they going to allowed to race ? The bod was aware of this practice and did nothing then.How about now???

[Gator Bob]

My question is what about the "cheating"racers who have done this and now have "illegal"motors in there possession. Are they going to allowed to race ? The bod was aware of this practice and did nothing then.How about now???

 

Since possession is 9/10s of the law ..... At $75 ea. it would take a lot of protest dollars to Ferret them out.

 

_{In the Hatfield–McCoy feud, with testimony evenly divided, the doctrine that possession is nine-tenths of the law caused Floyd Hatfield to retain possession of the pig that the McCoys claimed was their property.}

[Rick]

I don't have the patience to search thru 6 years of motor questions, but sending in an unsealed motor was not considered illegal when Hershman was the motor chair, he posted he checked for being in compliance and nothing was modified, then sealed.  I can't speak for anyone else but myself on my motors. I stated some reasons why opening and LOOKING at the parts is just smart to do. If we now buy a new motor and it's not so stellar, one could read the arm resistance and decide if they want to spend another $19, plus ship costs both ways, or ask for a new arm to be installed. You  can't polish a turd, period. If I had the advantage to have 200+ arms in  my hands to check, I would have ALL good arms in all my set-ups, but not many have this perk. Arms vary even when wound of a CNC bobbin winder. I reading of 10 counts will be the difference between a good one and a turd. I guess I could buy 25 arms and check them and then send in a sealed motor and ask to have those installed, instead of the one inside now, but who wants to spend that kind of money or even has that kind to throw around? It is what it is. I have seen already 2 people state they are done. Jay brings up a good point, what do we do with all the motors from this day in time back? If anyone ever wants to check my motors, feel free to approach me and it will only cost you $23, for the price to be resealed and returned to me. I'll bring all the tools necessary to check everything for you too!

[raisin27]

I don't have the patience to search thru 6 years of motor questions, but sending in an unsealed motor was not considered illegal when Hershman was the motor chair, he posted he checked for being in compliance and nothing was modified, then sealed.  I can't speak for anyone else but myself on my motors. I stated some reasons why opening and LOOKING at the parts is just smart to do. If we now buy a new motor and it's not so stellar, one could read the arm resistance and decide if they want to spend another $19, plus ship costs both ways, or ask for a new arm to be installed. You  can't polish a turd, period. If I had the advantage to have 200+ arms in  my hands to check, I would have ALL good arms in all my set-ups, but not many have this perk. Arms vary even when wound of a CNC bobbin winder. I reading of 10 counts will be the difference between a good one and a turd. I guess I could buy 25 arms and check them and then send in a sealed motor and ask to have those installed, instead of the one inside now, but who wants to spend that kind of money or even has that kind to throw around? It is what it is. I have seen already 2 people state they are done. Jay brings up a good point, what do we do with all the motors from this day in time back? If anyone ever wants to check my motors, feel free to approach me and it will only cost you $23, for the price to be resealed and returned to me. I'll bring all the tools necessary to check everything for you too!

 

All good points Rick. If enough racers agree then perhaps a case could be made for changing the motor rules at a future date. As I said in an earlier post that would actually benefit me personally.

 

However the rule currently does clearly state unopened and unmodified, and unless that is changed I have to take it at face value.

[Jason Holmes]

Noose

 

I have 3 motors seating on my work Table in the package sealed can see that the spacing is gunk the brush hood on 2 need to be fixed let me know if I fix these problems after I run them in before the Brawl and send them out for a refurb at PS will Dan do it and seal them Or has he been told by the BOD not accept motors with no seal as of now??

 

Thanks Jason

 

Best way to solve this at Major races is run all Hand outs just my 2 cents

 

P.S. I love to build motors but this is easy stuff to fix.

[John Miller]

I have a what if question.

The IRRA TM has now taken a stance that motors must have a seal for the refurbisher to rebuild.

What if the IRRA LLC allows unsealed motors to be refurbished, inspected/verified and resealed.

How is a manufacturer to verify what organization the motors will be ran in?

[slotracer43]

The use of sealed motors in Retro Racing, or any racing for that matter always seems to lead to greater participation. The idea that everyone is on an equal playing field motor wise is very appealing to many racers. By using sealed Puppy Dog motors that can also be refurbished is also another appealing aspect to racers. Obviously, using motors like this has always left the door open for racers to work on them and then having them sealed. It is almost impossible to enforce the rule that disallows this. However, it is cheating, plain and simple. But, that's all part of any form of racing, "cheating" or "bending the rules" . Personally I'm content sending my motors to Proslot and letting them do the work.  

[A. J. Hoyt]

A drifted thread topic in this post already stated it; enough unfair speculating about what Ron Hershman may or may not have done in previous races.

 

One simply has to acknowledge what was at stake for him in his business endeavors if someone ever protested his motor and it was found to be out of spec...he would be locked out of future competition AND the implications regarding his fair sportsmanship would have been foundationally tarnished. That's a lot to risk...I imagine he has thought the potential consequences through in more detail than I, a casual observer in this thread. A good business man would never risk it and Ron is still in business!

 

Besides, I have attended many races where Ron was entered (even a hand-out motor race!) and, while running in the Main, he would not have been in the top half of the Main in top end speed - his advantage was in at least a few OTHER performance optimized parameters.

 

Bottom line, my opinion, based on watching "the best of us", is in agreement with a number of other posts that the top motor does not ensure a win for anyone.

 

On the other hand, all other things being equal, a shorter time on the straights IS the gift that keeps on giving lap after lap all race long!

 

Keep it in the slot (like Ron!),

 

AJ

[Samiam]

I raced Sat at PJR and just could not find a fast enough motor for F1. These motors were not new or fresh refurbs but the comms looked ok and the arm dye wasn't burnt. What do I do with them? I can't meter them to check the arms now. Do I send them in for a roll of the dice refurb? Ask for new arms and take another roll of the dice? What I used to do is load arms into a good set up and track test. Good arms got put in a setup and sent in for a refurb/reseal.  No modifications of any sort. No hanky panky motor tricks/cheating. Just trying to make the most of my motor program.

 

 All my opened PS motors will now be used as Retro Pro builds. They are great little power plants that will find a home in some of my track cars. X-12 Mini-can Wing Cars or GT-12s? No big deal.

[Samiam]

AJ,

 Nobody implied that Ron was using out of spec parts in his motors. The ability to cherrypick through 100 arms and set ups for himself or his customers was the only point made. This is NOT cheating,just an advantage the average schmoe racer like myself does not have. Is it an unfair advantage for him and his customers? Now that I can't cherrypick through my ten motors for the best combination of LEGAL parts.....YES!

[Josh Crutchfield]

I have a what if question.
The IRRA TM has now taken a stance that motors must have a seal for the refurbisher to rebuild.
What if the IRRA LLC allows unsealed motors to be refurbished, inspected/verified and resealed.
How is a manufacturer to verify what organization the motors will be ran in?

The IRRA TM could choose only one refurber to do the motors. Since all the motors come out of the bag with a PtoSlot seal it only makes sense to use them. This could be done over a period of time or just at national events. It would be easier to police one refurber.

Trying to blueprint these motors is a waste of time and effort. There is no benefit from matched magnets. Your time and money is best spent on brushes and springs.

Josh

[Dan Ebert]

I wonder how many of the new {less turn} arms found there way into the old thicker cans.   And how many racers out there know that there is a difference.

[Samiam]

Dan,

 Are you referring to Puppy Dog American arms?

[Pablo]

Doc, I told you this would be a long thread

 

The IRRA Motor Chair is conspicuous in his absence here.....I assume he is working feverishly behind the scenes to rectify the fact  many people have been cheating all along......

[slotcarone]

I wonder how many of the new {less turn} arms found there way into the old thicker cans.   And how many racers out there know that there is a difference.

Actually Dan the older cans were the thinner ones.

[Samiam]

Paul,

 If you check back on previous threads where this was discussed racers were told they could do this by BoD members. So it was NOT cheating. There is not much you can do to these motors that the refurbers don't do anyway. Only benefit is weeding out the Dog arms.

[Joe Mig]

The beatings will continue.

[Pablo]

Sam, show me or quote me, one single IRRA BOD member who stated it was legal to open up a motor before sending it in to be "refurbed and re-sealed".  One of the refurbishers in question admitted it was being done, and he admitted to his complicity,  but never has an IRRA BOD member said this was legal. RSVP.  If I am wrong I will stand corrected.

Paul Wolcott

[W. J. Dougherty]

Paul,

The refurbisher you talk about was an IRRA BoD member at the time this was all brought up the first time. He was very specific about allowing people to work on their own motors before sending it to him. He said that he would then check each opened motor to ensure that it met manufacturer specs. If it met specs he would seal it; if not he wouldn't and then send it back to the owner.

[Pablo]

Those of you who say "stop beating a dead horse" are obviously trying to avoid the issue.

Avoiding the problem will not make it go away.  It isn't a "dead horse" until IRRA addresses and resolves it.

THEN, and only then will it become a "dead horse".

Those of you who have twisted the sentence "must remain unopened and unmodified" to suit your personal agenda are so wrong.

You should be ashamed of yourselves.

IRRA should be ashamed of themselves, also, for allowing this to have happened in the first place, and for taking so long to resolve it.  It is obvious the wording in the rules needs to be changed, and there is no excuse for taking forever to fix it.  Why can't you make a BOD conference call and fix it once and for all ?

This issue just keeps resurfacing time and again.  Why ? Because it IS an issue and it needs to be fixed.

If your ears are burning, maybe I hit a vein ?