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"Rods and Rails" discussion and car show


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#1 Gator Bob

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 10:50 PM

Open comment topic.

 

 

Links:
Rules and dates are here.
Concept born here.
 

 

 

 

"Git-R-Done".


Bob Israelite




#2 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 11:40 PM

Bob,

 

Can you post motor examples?


Matt Sheldon

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


#3 Gator Bob

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 11:45 PM

Bob,

 

Can you post motor examples?

 

Yes ... I will, Matt.

And anyone that enters the event or not can post questions, comments or pictures here in this Post Topic.


Bob Israelite

#4 Gator Bob

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 12:11 AM

Matt,

For starters.

 

Photo courtesy of Gary Bluestone.

post-1360-0-98608400-1308815353.jpg

 

 

 Pittman motors - Thanks to Steve Okeefe

 

 

 

 


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#5 idare2bdul

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 01:25 AM

"Can you post motor examples?"

Look up the Pittman 85 and Kemtron motors.

http://slotblog.net/topic/35733-pittman-85-etc-etc/

http://slotblog.net/topic/31111-the-mighty-kemtron/


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The light at the end of the tunnel is almost always a train.
Mike Boemker

#6 don.siegel

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 05:46 AM

Here's a quick reference guide to the main laminated pole ("padlock") motors.

 

Further details: Pittman made the DC-85 (6 & 12 V versions), later the DC-84 to compete with Ram; Ram did the DC-850 first, then the DC-857, which has thinner lams. The DC-65 is a smaller version, used in both 1/32 and 1/24 scale cars, mostly for road racing. The Strombecker Devestator is a Japanese made clone of the larger motors. The Rams were 7 pole, and the Pittmans 5 pole. Ram started by just supplying upgrade arms, then quickly made complete motors. By 1965 or so, they completely dominated the drag scene.

 

Pittman's original main competitor was Kemtron, a model train company that made the X-503 "Screaming Banshee" in versions from 4 to 18 volts; these were made in Japan, as was the KTM, basically identical - it may mean Kemtron Train Motor, if I remember right. The X-503 was a 5 pole motor. They later made the Mustang and Bronco, heftier 7-pole upgrades, the former with a 3/32 shaft and the latter with a 1/8" shaft, I think rated at 8 volts...

 

Don

 

Motor-lampole.jpg


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#7 don.siegel

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 05:54 AM

PS: Bob, if you want, I can post a few scans from period magazine articles to show what was being done at the time, here or in a separate thread...
Don
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#8 SlotStox#53

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 09:26 AM

That would be good to see Don :good:

One thing with the rail inspired cars by K&B and Russkit in the picture above , did they have any bodywork as such,or were they raced like that?

#9 Gator Bob

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 10:35 AM

Don,

This is the place for pictures, info, ideas and banter.

 

Great padlock story and ID data in your post #6.


Bob Israelite

#10 Gator Bob

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 02:47 PM

Bob, one thing I've noticed about running these old cars today is that they really hate glue. I'd like to ask that, if possible, at least the first 10-15 feet be cleaned and that that some effort be made to remove the "shutdown glue" off the tires as much as possible.

 

 

This previous request will be honored and cars will be run over a clean piece of cardboard after each pass.  

 

Does anyone think a hose down with lighter fluid before going on the de-glue board should be part of the process? 

 

All cars will get the same prep between rounds.


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#11 don.siegel

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 06:40 PM

Probably a good idea, but must admit I never ran these cars at the time (no local drag strip), and have only run in non-glue conditions, and very little, since then! 

 

I'm a definite entry Bob, will try to get 2 cars up and running, but at least one... 

 

To answer an earlier question here, the Russkit was sold like that, but the K&B had a shaped aluminum strip that covered the rails, very much in the style of the time for rail type dragsters. Some were pretty elaborately detailed, others pretty bare-boned... I think the minimum in the rules was some kind of body covering and a driver figure. 

 

Will do some scans when I have a bit more time. 

 

Don 


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#12 Gator Bob

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 06:46 PM

Slot drag racing and padlock motors are all "new" to me too, Don. :unknw:

I went down Bill's track with a Flexi .... once. :laugh2:  

 

:hi: Welcome and thanks for confirming your participation in what I view as a 50 year celebration of our hobby. :to_become_senile:


Bob Israelite

#13 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 07:21 PM

The motor will be my kryptonite as I am as confused as they come with the padlock motors, but I am in. I guess having the most horsepower might not be the guaranteed win solution either as I am guessing getting these to hook up on vintage rubber may be an issue? 

 

So my amateur question is how must faster is the X503 compared to say a Mustang or Bronco Kemtron? Lower the voltage rating the faster the motor? Do I want an 1/8 or 3/32" shaft? 

 

If all else fails at least I have the ability to chrome it.


Matt Sheldon

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


#14 Gator Bob

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 10:39 PM

Cool Matt, welcome !

 

I can't speak to any motor or gear combos but expect others will.

 

Good idea .. :sun_bespectacled: ..Chrome plating (or paint) is Totally legal too...  could even be the deciding factor for best appearing. :good:


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#15 SlotStox#53

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 09:16 AM

Matt, as far as know /have heard the lower the voltage rating the faster the motor :good:

#16 Gator Bob

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 01:03 PM

Did anyone run these old laminated motors geared at or close to 1:1?


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#17 SlotStox#53

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 01:25 PM



Did anyone run these old laminated motors geared at or close to 1:1?

Reading an article on the DC85 from the Independant Scratchbuilder around 2:1 , then for higher rpm motors /higher track voltage around 3:1 with no mention of actually being at full 1:1.



#18 Gator Bob

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 01:59 PM

LOL .... 128 grams :crazy:

 

Coming soon ... :shok: Watch for the US IronTM  sponsored "Tons of Fun" Top Eliminator Rail job. :D

 

 

IMG_2670.JPG



#19 Gator Bob

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 07:41 PM

I think it would be prudent to set an overall length .. wheelbase and/or rear axle to guide post lead.

 

Does anyone have the rule(s) from the  R and C Drag logo.JPG

 

 

 


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#20 SlotStox#53

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 09:49 PM

Don't have the rules Bob , but found this Kemtron catalog page gathering dust on the hard drive. For Matt & anyone else wondering on some technical specs between the Kemtron X503 , Mustang and Bronco. Mustang & Bronco using 7 pole armatures by RAM with welded comm wires.

 

 

Kemtron Catalog.jpg


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#21 don.siegel

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 05:26 AM

I have all that Bob - will scan this weekend!

Thanks for listing that Paul; I didn't remember that Kemtron was charging $10 for those two motors! and that they were Made in the USA to boot... seems very high, considering that the Ram 7 pole was only $6 or $7, and it was a proven performer...

I used a Mustang on one of my Bordeaux vintage cars, but speed was pretty mediocre - not as high as one of the lower volt X-503s... However, drag racing may be a whole new equation... and then again, the fact that we're limiting this to 14V or so will make it very different from period drags.

Don

#22 don.siegel

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 10:31 AM

As promised, here are some relevant scans. First, the R&C drag race rules, starting with their 2nd race from 1963 (Aug. R&C issue); then the rules from 1966 (February issue), which are more complete, and have some illlustrations of the classes. I think we'll mainly be going for rod & rail type dragsters, right Bob? The overall length limit for the rail jobs was first set at 9-1/2" and 3" width. By 1966, the length was increased to 10", but just for unlimited class, and the width was 3-1/4". I think we could stick to 9-1/2 and 3" for this event. 

 

1963

RCdragrules-0863_zps793b4cc1.jpg

 

1966

RCdragrules-0266-1_zps6c1c97c0.jpg

 

RCdragrules-0266-2_zpsc4361302.jpg

 

RCdragrules-0266-3_zps8c3c4987.jpg

 

RCdragrules-0266-4_zps4efe2b7b.jpg


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#23 don.siegel

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 10:39 AM

Now for a look at some of the typical dragsters. Don't want to scare you guys off, but I'm starting with the ne plus ultra - Gene Hustings fuel dragster, the first to break the 1 second mark. Gene was probably the top dragster man at the time, and later founded Associated R/C... this is part 3, but happened to be after the rules, so I scanned it! If anybody ambitious wants to see the previous 2 how-to-build articles, can scan them too... But this will give you an idea of what the top guys were doing at the time! 

 

HustingImpossible3-RC0266-1_zpsd0315687.

 

HustingImpossible3-RC0266-2_zpsab9232b4.

 

HustingImpossible3-RC0266-3_zps2bc1bd99.

 

HustingImpossible3-RC0266-4_zps157bb13d.


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#24 don.siegel

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 11:17 AM

Here's the report on the first Rod & Custom National Championship Electric Drags, from the October 62 issue of R&C. You'll note that there is a very wide variety of cars, they are generally very well finished, and appearance still seems to account for a lot. That won't last very long... Also, a pretty wide variety of motors, from Mabuchi, to PIttman, and from Tradeship to Lindsay... In 1962, there were basically no electric motors made specifically for scale racing! Times weren't too bad either, with top ET by Chuck Hamill of 1.593... Nice front cover color photo too! 

 

Don

 

RCdrags1-1062-1_zps26aa082e.jpg

 

RCdrags1-1062-2_zpsf5616218.jpg

 

RCdrags1-1062-3_zpsd8815796.jpg

 

RCdrags1-1062-4_zps156e761c.jpg

 

RCdrags1-1062-5_zpse17d06e0.jpg

 

RCdrags1-1062-6_zps98ec7a4d.jpg

 

RCdrags1-1062-7_zpse360f3da.jpg

 

RCdrags1-1062-8_zps7c16bdfe.jpg

 

RCdrags1-1062-9_zpsf3c6df6a.jpg


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#25 don.siegel

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 12:50 PM

Here are some of the cars from the 2nd R&C national drags - I haven't scanned all of the pages, just the ones with the interesting cars and the times. These articles are from the Jan 64 issue of Car Model and the Feb 64 issue of Rod & Custom. In fact, the following year, Car Model took over the national drags (like the R&C Road Race series) and ran them for a couple of years, I think just 65-67, but will have to check. 

 

Forgot to mention earlier, but in fact, the first electric drag article was in Rod & Custom - in March 1958! That was a rail track of course...

 

Car Model January 64

 

RCdrags2-CM0164-1_zpsdd8ac9dd.jpg

 

RCdrags2-CM0164-2_zps112af08d.jpg

 

RCdrags2-CM0164-3_zps543ff911.jpg

 

R&C, February 64 (dig the chain drive dragster!)

 

RCdrags2-RC0264-1_zpseaf2124e.jpg

 

RCdrags2-RC0264-2_zps17ef2372.jpg

 

RCdrags2-RC0264-3_zps1963a657.jpg

 

RCdrags2-RC0264-4_zpsf9faf3c6.jpg


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#26 SlotStox#53

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 01:00 PM

Wow thanks for posting these Don ! Gene's Fuel dragster is out of this world ! :D

 

Some of those other rail jobs are just awesome looking too :)  Plenty of different designs ,even the double motor'd ones!



#27 don.siegel

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 01:06 PM

Here are a couple more from a little later. You can see that the articles generally show only the top fuelers, with an occasional rod or stocker. The cars are now running pretty consistently around 1 second, and in the R&C article on the meet at the 4-lane dragstrip at Competition Raceway from October 1966, there are a couple demo runs at .972 and .981! 

 

Very little real experimentation by this time, although there is one idler gear at the later race. And Gene Husting talks about a car with an experimental motor using a full-ring ceramic magnet, stock 6V Ram arm and Pittman DC85A brushes - ET of .961 ! 

 

R&C, August 1966, Associated Raceway: 

 

AssociatedDrags-RC0866_zpsdc2fc873.jpg

 

R&C, October 1966, Competition Raceways

 

CompetitionDrags-RC1066-1_zps2613496d.jp

 

CompetitionDrags-RC1066-2_zpsceb3fcb5.jp

 

CompetitionDrags-RC1066-3_zpsb212c0c2.jp


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#28 don.siegel

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 06:03 PM

Last couple scans for now, unless somebody wants something more specific. 

 

First, the first Car Model international all scale drag meet, just the 1/24 cars, from the July 1965 issue. This was mainly a proxy event, and you'll notice the times are higher than when the drivers are there to take care of their own cars. 

 

CM1-124-CM0765-1_zpsf4e5fe07.jpg

 

CM1-124-CM0765-2_zpsb320f5b5.jpg

 

CM1-124-CM0765-3_zps73d9f279.jpg

 

CM1-124-CM0765-4_zps1d1ab669.jpg

 

And to close out, another look at drag classes and some typical cars from early 1964 timeframe, this time in the June 1964 Car Model magazine: 

 

Dragginclasses-CM0664-1_zpsf33741da.jpg

 

Dragginclasses-CM0664-2_zps92d18523.jpg

 

Start windin' up your mags'! 

 

Don 


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#29 Gator Bob

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 06:40 PM

Outstanding document contributions !!! 

 

That is some serious hardcore racing for being on the floor.. homeset style .. it was good to be young... lol 

 

I was thinking Rods and Rails heads up for the fun of it.

Hoping we get to 16 and that killer rail job instinct doesn't discourage anyone from entering classic "wheelstanding door slammers or flip tops"

 

I asked about 'how long' to avoid any 3 footers.

As far as the vintage 10 inch car length I took a look at the modern rule:

 Top Fuel Dragster.

Wheelbase is a minimum of 9”. Overall length is 14” from nose

to center line of the rear axle.

 

So ... How about 9.5 guide lead from rear axle, 9 inch minimum wheelbase and a 10.5 inch overall length ... to go along with the no wheelie bar rule.


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#30 SlotStox#53

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 06:48 PM

Thanks again for the scans Don!

 

Count me in Bob as a tentative "yes" :good:  Waiting on some engine parts being air lifted from France :D Getting some ideas for a car or by some miracle two! :shok: One hopefully at the very least.

 

Leaning towards a Gasser Willys or one of those Fuel Altereds like ROAR created , either Bantom style like "Pure Hell" or a Fiat Topolino type :good: Although that could all change :laugh2:



#31 Gator Bob

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 06:56 PM

The 1933 K&S Pittman Gasser would be very cool ... :o  :sarcastic_hand:

 

Will do Paul :good: ... "Git-R-Done".  :laugh2:

 

 


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#32 SlotStox#53

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 07:09 PM

 

 

 ... "Git-R-Done".  :laugh2:

 

 

Along with a stalled R&C build it will be done :laugh2:  Must stop procastinating :unknw: :sarcastic_hand:



#33 Gator Bob

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 07:38 PM

Dynamic chassis is always a valid option. :D

 

I keep playing Larry the Cable Guy as my reminder. :dash2:  :laugh2:


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#34 JohnnySlotcar

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 08:39 PM

Manta Ray and myself will prepare an 857 powered beast!


John Austin

#35 Gator Bob

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 08:52 PM

John .. one car ?

 

Or:

Ray 1

John 1


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#36 JohnnySlotcar

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 10:15 PM

1 [one] each! Tnx  65x power for me!


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#37 Gator Bob

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 11:20 PM

Awesome ... welcome John and Ray. I think (guess) the 65s will run good ... they rev up. :good:  


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#38 Régis4446

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 04:29 AM

Thank you for sharing


This is a very good idea that race

I will follow with interest the proxi, thank you to make a lot of pictures made dragters slot.

I presented a vintage dragster on slotbog


http://slotblog.net/...ntage-inspired/
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Régis Baron

#39 Gator Bob

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 11:36 AM

Thank you for sharing


This is a very good idea that race

I will follow with interest the proxi, thank you to make a lot of pictures made dragters slot.

I presented a vintage dragster on slotbog


http://slotblog.net/...ntage-inspired/

 

:shok: And a beautiful one at that. :good:  :good:


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#40 SlotStox#53

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 11:48 AM

Wow!! That's one beautiful Dragster !! :shok: :heart:

#41 Foamy

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 01:29 PM

$80.00 entry fee? Did I read that right?


Dennis Hill
 
"Just once I want my life to be like an 80's movie,
preferably one with a really awesome musical number for no apparent reason."

 


#42 MSwiss

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 01:32 PM

No.That's the total for all 16 guys.LOL
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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL) 
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#43 Gator Bob

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 02:33 PM

Foamy, What Mike said.

 

Five Bucks per car.


Bob Israelite

#44 Foamy

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 06:10 PM

Oh...ok. 80bux would have made it a non starter for me. If I can make my own rims, then I'm in.


Dennis Hill
 
"Just once I want my life to be like an 80's movie,
preferably one with a really awesome musical number for no apparent reason."

 


#45 Gator Bob

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 08:31 PM

Dennis, 

As you know I would like to have you join but I'm going to have to hold the line on the rule as stated.

 

  • ALL Vintage running gear- Guide flags to wires and tyres.

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#46 don.siegel

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 05:26 AM

I've also got an extra pack or two of the Russkit dragster rims if you want those Dennis...

 

Don


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#47 Gator Bob

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 11:43 AM

Joe Lupo has confirmed an entry by a PM.

Welcome Joe! :good:


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#48 JohnnySlotcar

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 03:17 PM

This the 65 I will be working on. Not sure about Ray

 

 

DSC04779.JPG


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John Austin

#49 Gator Bob

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 04:30 PM

Cool beans ... :good:

 

John is that a Kemtron chassis? :to_become_senile:  :unknw:


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#50 Gator Bob

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 05:15 PM

Here is a start on the event winner trophy.

 

It has some patina ...

... it is from IIRC a fans choice win with my Super Bee R/T Dodge at the Spotswood NJ Fire Dept. 4th Annual Car Show 1994.

 

I think recycling is a good thing. It was originally assembled by Championship Awards right in Spotswood NJ and I hope it is of all 'local' materials.

 

I'm looking for ideas, comments and opinions. Paint it, leave the patina, get a whole new one?

 

I like the chopped Merc on top with a side order of padlock, hold the key. I will have plaque replaced with the event title and date.

 

IMG_2693sss.jpg


Bob Israelite





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