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"Rods and Rails" discussion and car show


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#1 Gator Bob

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 10:50 PM

Open comment topic.

 

 

Links:
Rules and dates are here.
Concept born here.
 

 

 

 

"Git-R-Done".


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#2 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 11:40 PM

Bob,

 

Can you post motor examples?


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#3 Gator Bob

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 11:45 PM

Bob,

 

Can you post motor examples?

 

Yes ... I will, Matt.

And anyone that enters the event or not can post questions, comments or pictures here in this Post Topic.


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#4 Gator Bob

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 12:11 AM

Matt,

For starters.

 

Photo courtesy of Gary Bluestone.

post-1360-0-98608400-1308815353.jpg

 

 

 Pittman motors - Thanks to Steve Okeefe

 

 

 

 


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#5 idare2bdul

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 01:25 AM

"Can you post motor examples?"

Look up the Pittman 85 and Kemtron motors.

http://slotblog.net/topic/35733-pittman-85-etc-etc/

http://slotblog.net/topic/31111-the-mighty-kemtron/


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The light at the end of the tunnel is almost always a train.
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#6 don.siegel

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 05:46 AM

Here's a quick reference guide to the main laminated pole ("padlock") motors.

 

Further details: Pittman made the DC-85 (6 & 12 V versions), later the DC-84 to compete with Ram; Ram did the DC-850 first, then the DC-857, which has thinner lams. The DC-65 is a smaller version, used in both 1/32 and 1/24 scale cars, mostly for road racing. The Strombecker Devestator is a Japanese made clone of the larger motors. The Rams were 7 pole, and the Pittmans 5 pole. Ram started by just supplying upgrade arms, then quickly made complete motors. By 1965 or so, they completely dominated the drag scene.

 

Pittman's original main competitor was Kemtron, a model train company that made the X-503 "Screaming Banshee" in versions from 4 to 18 volts; these were made in Japan, as was the KTM, basically identical - it may mean Kemtron Train Motor, if I remember right. The X-503 was a 5 pole motor. They later made the Mustang and Bronco, heftier 7-pole upgrades, the former with a 3/32 shaft and the latter with a 1/8" shaft, I think rated at 8 volts...

 

Don

 

Motor-lampole.jpg


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#7 don.siegel

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 05:54 AM

PS: Bob, if you want, I can post a few scans from period magazine articles to show what was being done at the time, here or in a separate thread...
Don
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#8 SlotStox#53

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 09:26 AM

That would be good to see Don :good:

One thing with the rail inspired cars by K&B and Russkit in the picture above , did they have any bodywork as such,or were they raced like that?

#9 Gator Bob

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 10:35 AM

Don,

This is the place for pictures, info, ideas and banter.

 

Great padlock story and ID data in your post #6.


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#10 Gator Bob

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 02:47 PM

Bob, one thing I've noticed about running these old cars today is that they really hate glue. I'd like to ask that, if possible, at least the first 10-15 feet be cleaned and that that some effort be made to remove the "shutdown glue" off the tires as much as possible.

 

 

This previous request will be honored and cars will be run over a clean piece of cardboard after each pass.  

 

Does anyone think a hose down with lighter fluid before going on the de-glue board should be part of the process? 

 

All cars will get the same prep between rounds.


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#11 don.siegel

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 06:40 PM

Probably a good idea, but must admit I never ran these cars at the time (no local drag strip), and have only run in non-glue conditions, and very little, since then! 

 

I'm a definite entry Bob, will try to get 2 cars up and running, but at least one... 

 

To answer an earlier question here, the Russkit was sold like that, but the K&B had a shaped aluminum strip that covered the rails, very much in the style of the time for rail type dragsters. Some were pretty elaborately detailed, others pretty bare-boned... I think the minimum in the rules was some kind of body covering and a driver figure. 

 

Will do some scans when I have a bit more time. 

 

Don 


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#12 Gator Bob

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 06:46 PM

Slot drag racing and padlock motors are all "new" to me too, Don. :unknw:

I went down Bill's track with a Flexi .... once. :laugh2:  

 

:hi: Welcome and thanks for confirming your participation in what I view as a 50 year celebration of our hobby. :to_become_senile:


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#13 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 07:21 PM

The motor will be my kryptonite as I am as confused as they come with the padlock motors, but I am in. I guess having the most horsepower might not be the guaranteed win solution either as I am guessing getting these to hook up on vintage rubber may be an issue? 

 

So my amateur question is how must faster is the X503 compared to say a Mustang or Bronco Kemtron? Lower the voltage rating the faster the motor? Do I want an 1/8 or 3/32" shaft? 

 

If all else fails at least I have the ability to chrome it.


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#14 Gator Bob

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 10:39 PM

Cool Matt, welcome !

 

I can't speak to any motor or gear combos but expect others will.

 

Good idea .. :sun_bespectacled: ..Chrome plating (or paint) is Totally legal too...  could even be the deciding factor for best appearing. :good:


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#15 SlotStox#53

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 09:16 AM

Matt, as far as know /have heard the lower the voltage rating the faster the motor :good:

#16 Gator Bob

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 01:03 PM

Did anyone run these old laminated motors geared at or close to 1:1?


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#17 SlotStox#53

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 01:25 PM



Did anyone run these old laminated motors geared at or close to 1:1?

Reading an article on the DC85 from the Independant Scratchbuilder around 2:1 , then for higher rpm motors /higher track voltage around 3:1 with no mention of actually being at full 1:1.



#18 Gator Bob

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 01:59 PM

LOL .... 128 grams :crazy:

 

Coming soon ... :shok: Watch for the US IronTM  sponsored "Tons of Fun" Top Eliminator Rail job. :D

 

 

IMG_2670.JPG



#19 Gator Bob

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 07:41 PM

I think it would be prudent to set an overall length .. wheelbase and/or rear axle to guide post lead.

 

Does anyone have the rule(s) from the  R and C Drag logo.JPG

 

 

 


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#20 SlotStox#53

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 09:49 PM

Don't have the rules Bob , but found this Kemtron catalog page gathering dust on the hard drive. For Matt & anyone else wondering on some technical specs between the Kemtron X503 , Mustang and Bronco. Mustang & Bronco using 7 pole armatures by RAM with welded comm wires.

 

 

Kemtron Catalog.jpg


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#21 don.siegel

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 05:26 AM

I have all that Bob - will scan this weekend!

Thanks for listing that Paul; I didn't remember that Kemtron was charging $10 for those two motors! and that they were Made in the USA to boot... seems very high, considering that the Ram 7 pole was only $6 or $7, and it was a proven performer...

I used a Mustang on one of my Bordeaux vintage cars, but speed was pretty mediocre - not as high as one of the lower volt X-503s... However, drag racing may be a whole new equation... and then again, the fact that we're limiting this to 14V or so will make it very different from period drags.

Don

#22 don.siegel

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 10:31 AM

As promised, here are some relevant scans. First, the R&C drag race rules, starting with their 2nd race from 1963 (Aug. R&C issue); then the rules from 1966 (February issue), which are more complete, and have some illlustrations of the classes. I think we'll mainly be going for rod & rail type dragsters, right Bob? The overall length limit for the rail jobs was first set at 9-1/2" and 3" width. By 1966, the length was increased to 10", but just for unlimited class, and the width was 3-1/4". I think we could stick to 9-1/2 and 3" for this event. 

 

1963

RCdragrules-0863_zps793b4cc1.jpg

 

1966

RCdragrules-0266-1_zps6c1c97c0.jpg

 

RCdragrules-0266-2_zpsc4361302.jpg

 

RCdragrules-0266-3_zps8c3c4987.jpg

 

RCdragrules-0266-4_zps4efe2b7b.jpg


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#23 don.siegel

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 10:39 AM

Now for a look at some of the typical dragsters. Don't want to scare you guys off, but I'm starting with the ne plus ultra - Gene Hustings fuel dragster, the first to break the 1 second mark. Gene was probably the top dragster man at the time, and later founded Associated R/C... this is part 3, but happened to be after the rules, so I scanned it! If anybody ambitious wants to see the previous 2 how-to-build articles, can scan them too... But this will give you an idea of what the top guys were doing at the time! 

 

HustingImpossible3-RC0266-1_zpsd0315687.

 

HustingImpossible3-RC0266-2_zpsab9232b4.

 

HustingImpossible3-RC0266-3_zps2bc1bd99.

 

HustingImpossible3-RC0266-4_zps157bb13d.


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#24 don.siegel

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 11:17 AM

Here's the report on the first Rod & Custom National Championship Electric Drags, from the October 62 issue of R&C. You'll note that there is a very wide variety of cars, they are generally very well finished, and appearance still seems to account for a lot. That won't last very long... Also, a pretty wide variety of motors, from Mabuchi, to PIttman, and from Tradeship to Lindsay... In 1962, there were basically no electric motors made specifically for scale racing! Times weren't too bad either, with top ET by Chuck Hamill of 1.593... Nice front cover color photo too! 

 

Don

 

RCdrags1-1062-1_zps26aa082e.jpg

 

RCdrags1-1062-2_zpsf5616218.jpg

 

RCdrags1-1062-3_zpsd8815796.jpg

 

RCdrags1-1062-4_zps156e761c.jpg

 

RCdrags1-1062-5_zpse17d06e0.jpg

 

RCdrags1-1062-6_zps98ec7a4d.jpg

 

RCdrags1-1062-7_zpse360f3da.jpg

 

RCdrags1-1062-8_zps7c16bdfe.jpg

 

RCdrags1-1062-9_zpsf3c6df6a.jpg


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#25 don.siegel

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 12:50 PM

Here are some of the cars from the 2nd R&C national drags - I haven't scanned all of the pages, just the ones with the interesting cars and the times. These articles are from the Jan 64 issue of Car Model and the Feb 64 issue of Rod & Custom. In fact, the following year, Car Model took over the national drags (like the R&C Road Race series) and ran them for a couple of years, I think just 65-67, but will have to check. 

 

Forgot to mention earlier, but in fact, the first electric drag article was in Rod & Custom - in March 1958! That was a rail track of course...

 

Car Model January 64

 

RCdrags2-CM0164-1_zpsdd8ac9dd.jpg

 

RCdrags2-CM0164-2_zps112af08d.jpg

 

RCdrags2-CM0164-3_zps543ff911.jpg

 

R&C, February 64 (dig the chain drive dragster!)

 

RCdrags2-RC0264-1_zpseaf2124e.jpg

 

RCdrags2-RC0264-2_zps17ef2372.jpg

 

RCdrags2-RC0264-3_zps1963a657.jpg

 

RCdrags2-RC0264-4_zpsf9faf3c6.jpg


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