537 replies to this topic

[Cheater]

Keep the focus on supporting your local raceway. Emphasize the fun aspect of slot car racing. Encourage and help new racers. Be unselfish and everyone will benefit. Hopefully, this approach will become more common throughout our hobby.

Keith,

The only issue I have with your "prescription" is that it suggests the best way for the hobby to grow is via "grass roots" efforts. That if the participants sufficiently patronize the raceways, promote the hobby, and assist the newbies, things will surely get better. And I don't believe that is the case.

If ones looks at other established leisure time activities, there's almost always some sort of organized advocacy group that works to emphasize "the fun aspect" and to "encourage and help new" participants. Often these advocacy groups are trade associations, sometimes sanctioning bodies, sometimes clubs. And, based on my observation, this is the approach that has generated growth for numerous other hobbies and LTAs.

Such advocacy groups perform the functions mentioned (and others) in that middle ground between the greedy manufacturers just out for a buck and the participants who just want to play without having to worry about the P&Ls of their raceway playground.

Slot racing really needs some sort of advocacy organization with the goals of increasing exposure and growth of the hobby in its charter. Individual trackowners cannot perform this function for numerous reasons. And the racers and players working individually are unlikely to get the job done, as history should prove. Assembling and funding the work of such an association for slot racing would no doubt be difficult, but I have to feel it's the only approach that will bear fruit. It certainly has never been tried, at least not in the manner envisioned.

[markdshark]

It seems that when people are selfish and only think of themselves, they tend to not see the big picture. Paul Sterrett and SoCal D3 is determined to keep the focus on supporting our local raceway to benefit everyone. We feel this is the long term path we must take to prevent the mistakes of the past from recurring and maybe, just maybe provide a future for commercial raceways and slot racers.

Keep the focus on supporting your local raceway. Emphasize the fun aspect of slot car racing. Encourage and help new racers. Be unselfish and everyone will benefit. Hopefully, this approach will become more common throughout our hobby.

I've seen many a raceway, here in the Detroit area, killed off by the better racers selling stuff (chassis, motors, and complete cars) out of their boxes. Sure, they pocket some money, but what it does is put another nail in the raceways "closed for good" sign!!! You can't expect to have a place to race without supporting it.

[milmilhas]

The excess speed, scratchbuilding, the cars didn't look like real cars, the constant evolution of parts and prices were why slot cars faded so quickly in popularity in Portugal but as in USA we had too a war and young boys went to Africa.

[Robert Livingston]

The excess speed, scratchbuilding, the cars didn't look like real cars, the constant evolution of parts and prices were why slot cars faded so quickly in popularity in Portugal but as in USA we had too a war and young boys went to Africa.

Thank you.
When you read the 1/32 forums, the guys who were around in the 1960s constantly say the scale issue was a big reason why they left slot car racing. The cars stopped looking like scale models as early as 1967. The current semi-scale, retro D3 interest that dominates this group, here on Slotlog, seems primarily the opinion of guys who were NOT turned off by the non-scale aspect. These guys persisted (or started) post-1967. The scale guys all left. Thus, the discussion here is limited to guys who don't have a more than casual interest in scale racing. It is a self-limiting discussion, and is bound to de-emphasize one of the more important elements of why slot car racing faded.

The resurgence of 1/32 plasticar scale racing is way bigger than D3 and/or commercial track activity. Thus, any discussion of why slot car racing faded out c. 1967 would have to include the lack of scale realism as an important factor, even though this forum is focused on the semi-scale, scratchbuilding, commercial track side of the hobby.

[Vay Jonynas]

You could be right. I remember being very disappointed when I saw the vacuum-formed bodies with which Monogram had replaced the hard plastic bodies in their last generation of kits. I just didn't think they were "right". I was also very much unimpressed with the "flattened-out" hard plastic bodies that came with Cox's IFC kits.



Of course by 1967 I was fifteen and other things were drawing my interest anyway.

[TSR]

I was also very much unimpressed with the "flattened-out" hard plastic bodies that came with Cox's IFC kits.

Uh, only the Cheetah was modified, lowered by 1/8". The other three were not, and that includes the Dino of which only changes were a one-piece window and slots on its side to fit the alloy body mount.

[Cheater]

The resurgence of 1/32 plasticar scale racing is way bigger than D3 and/or commercial track activity. Thus, any discussion of why slot car racing faded out c. 1967 would have to include the lack of scale realism as an important factor, even though this forum is focused on the semi-scale, scratchbuilding, commercial track side of the hobby.

No doubt it was a factor, but I think it is overly simplistic to suggest that "scaleness" is the primary reason the commercial raceway industry crashed, just as I believe it is overly simplistic to suggest that the primary reason for the growth of 1/32 plasticars is due to scaleness. (It ignores the fact that 1/32 racing is overwhelmingly practiced at home or in a club, not in a commercial establishment, and it also ignores the nearly 100% RTR approach of the 1/32 plasticar industry.)

As I pointed out very early in this thread, the cars raced at commercial raceways at the time of the crash were considerably more scale than became the norm in the '70s and beyond. And then there's HO, which has exhibited a reasonably consistent sales history in spite of being very non-scale.

If scaleness is the most important factor, where is an example of a successful commercial raceway based on that concept? I don't know of a single one; do you? If the success of commercial slot racing facilities hinged solely on the scaleness of the cars used, why hasn't at least one businessman followed that simple "prescription" to create a stable and profitable commercial raceway? If it is that simple, why hasn't someone done it?

Sorry, gentlemen, this never-ending insistence that the scaleness of slot cars is the critical factor in the decline of 1/24 slot car raceways is not supported by the facts as I view them. Proponents of such opinions are clearly incorporating their own preferences and, it must be remarked, seem to be overwhelmingly hobbyists and participants (insiders) as opposed to non-involved analysts and businesspeople.

Please note that I am not suggesting that scaleness is not a factor, but IMO it is not the critical factor, as many insist.

Edit: One further thought, if the scaleness of the current 1/32 scale plasticars is so attractive and compelling, why are there no stable and profitable commercial facilities catering to 1/32 scale racers? Or is there one somewhere that I don't know about...

[Prof. Fate]

Hi,

While I have been in some of these conversations about the "why" part, I can be honest that I don't KNOW. No way to test a hypothesis, really. I "think" it was a combination of things.

And a basic one, it was a fad. Pet Rocks, Hoola Hoops, Beaney Babies. A fad.

It persisted as a hobby.

But the scale issue: I started with 1/24 in '59 due to the Merit and Stromie kits, and went to 1/32 later. But always did both scales. In the "fad" period, my 1/32 groups faded until '67 when it was down to the occasional run on my Revell track at home. In '68, I was waiting for a serious money main and started BSing with some of the guys. A couple said, "Remember when the cars were scale?" I said "there are no non-scale 1/32 bit available". So, we formed a formal 1/32 club which persisted from there to the mid-'90s. The end for that club happened when the later members who outnumbered the "founders" declared it illegal to build. For "fair and equal" racing, we could only run plastic RTR. The fighting resulted in the old guys dropping out. But the "reformed" club still races today every Thursday.

Fate

[don.siegel]

Two quick points that I've made before, backing up some of what's been said here:

1) Commercial racing was never that scale, by the nature of the beast. Sure, there were moderately-scale hard plastic cars for a little while, but when you get millions of kids doing this more as a fad than a hobby, the bulk of them were quickly not very scale.

2) Commercial slot racing was in a perpetual crisis! And perhaps it's the commercial model that was, as Rocky said, the fad, and unsustainable. I've got a trade mag from late 1965 - height of the commercial racing business - that says in big, bold letters: Slot Racing: Boom or Bust? And looking through R&C for the RTR Roundup information, there was already an editorial in early or mid 1966 about the "panic" in the commercial raceway field.

That's not to say that scale/competition issues didn't play a role. When Jeff Davies and friends interviewed the early rail racers in England a lot of them said they dropped out when slot racing came in, because it was all becoming too serious... (I'm simplifying this a bit, but that remark was heard several times).

Don

[markdshark]

There have always been two types of racers. Those who were racing scale-appearing model cars, and those who were just plain racing. The latter didn't mind what the thing looked like, just as long as it was fast. The problem, for raceways, has always been, to find the happy medium, between the two.

[TSR]

This is where D3 comes in.

[Cheater]

There have always been two types of racers. Those who were racing scale-appearing model cars, and those who were just plain racing. The latter didn't mind what the thing looked like, just as long as it was fast.

Yep, there are indeed two main groups: modelers and racers.

The problem, for raceways, has always been, to find the happy medium, between the two.

Not totally accurate. The problem for raceways has been getting sufficient patronage resulting in enough revenue to cover the overhead and to give a decent profit.

The "happy medium" to which you refer is the ability to attract a decent level of patronage from both groups, and I would agree that this "balance" is something that the majority of raceways never achieve.

[jimht]

There have only been 2 kinds of customers:
those who want to play & those who want to race, with much crossover between them.
BUT...those who only want to play have not been the primary market since the Sixties.
It's easy to sell toys; it's harder to sell a Hobby.
The success of 1/32 is based on aiming only at the players, which has been done by a fanatical dedication to scale on the part of the manufacturers.
It's not that scale is necessary to have a strong racing program, scale is necessary to attract the players.
Our mistake in the 1/24 business is that we stopped making & selling toys that would appeal to a broad market.
AND we never adjusted the size of the tracks to match the rising cost of good retail floor space.

[TSR]

It's not that scale is necessary to have a strong racing program, scale is necessary to attract the players.
Our mistake in the 1/24 business is that we stopped making & selling toys that would appeal to a broad market.

Which I have repeated for years preaching in a desert of incomprehension or insults for even mentioning it. Now it is simply a desert.

[Robert Livingston]

This was the original question:

What do you think was the main reason that slot car racing faded so quickly in popularity in 1967-68? Had technology evolved so rapidly that the typical ten to fourteen-year-old did not have the money to buy what was needed to stay competitive, let alone the metal cutting and soldering skills required for scratchbuilding?

Or was it simply a case that popular culture very suddenly evolved away from models, cars, etc., so that even pre-teen fellows wanted to play in rock bands like the Beatles and the Stones instead of being car nuts/grease monkeys?"

The question of what happened to slot car racing is not exactly the same as what happened to commercial raceways. The commercial raceway trend was nearly over as soon as it started, due to the basic economic flaw in which overhead exceeded income, for various reasons. It was a blip in the history of the hobby. Slot car racing is a much longer lived phenomenon, and goes on to this day. Today, it is an RTR hobby which is about highly-detailed, brightly-colored race car models, which are to reasonable 1/32 scale, and work reasonably well, more or less, on the small tracks for which they are intended. It is not in the center of popular culture as it was in 1965-67, but as Rocky has pointed out repeatedly, the fad is not the same as the hobby.

That a few survivors of the commercial raceway heyday ("pro" hobbyists) have resurrected their former hobby is a trend we have seen in other activities. It reminds me of circle track, modified stock cars with flat head motors, lovingly restored by ancient guys who raced them in their youth; it reminds me also of static plastic modelers, buying and building surviving kits, and reproductions, to build that aircraft they had botched as a kid, but to today's high standards. There is a large element of doing it right this time, making the wrongs right.

The question of "scale" is really a question of appearance. If there is to be a complete visual representation, the models must look good, at rest, as well as acting like race cars when powered up. I believe that slot cars belong on tracks with realistic roadways, and realistic scenery, and that a good-looking race track appears to follow real terrain, not just be an abstract roadway hanging in space. A good-looking raceway has a sense of place. To capture the public imagination, and bring more people into the hobby, the racing and the modeling should both be there.

There is a guy named Luf Linkert building a model of the Nurburgring, with a very long straight with ups and downs, and a compound banked, Karoussel turn. This is a private club-like raceway, housed in his place of business. Voltage is around 10, scale is 1/32. This is the future of the hobby, in my opinion. Model railroading followed the same turn, from large clubs in rented quarters, giving public shows, to private clubs, refining their art under more controlled conditions, not supported by the general public at all. I really don't know, but take a look anyway:





www.oldslotracer.com

[Cheater]

Robert,

I agree with you that slot racing's future in the US most likely involves clubs and home tracks, as is the case in the rest of the world.

As for the original question, surely the reference to "slot car racing [fading] so quickly in popularity in 1967-68?" specifically means the commercial raceway slot racing scene, for no other part of the hobby experienced the precipitous downturn mentioned.

Regarding the "hobby which is about highly-detailed, brightly-colored race car models, which are to reasonable 1/32 scale, and work reasonably well", it seems to me that the functional quality and durability of most 1/32 RTRs is not high, resulting in "racer" participant frustration, at least based on posts made to other boards. I suspect it has also caused some to exit the hobby. Perhaps the pendulum has swung too far in the direction of modeling in the 1/32 plasticar arena?

Many of us have made the comparison between model railroading and slot racing and I still think it is a valid one. The model railroading hobby has achieved a far better balance between the modeling and performance aspects, and has elevated itself to a level of maturity (for lack of a better word) that slot racing would do well to emulate.

[don.siegel]

Except that there is no "performance" aspect per se in model railroading, Greg - it's a pure hobby, meaning one that can be practiced alone, even if a club or friends can enhance the fun.

Slot racing is not in this situation and will always be caught between the sport and hobby (racing/modeling) aspects, so is doomed to cyclic activity of ever decreasing frequency...

The low point in the industry was probably in the late '70s, when even the comparatively healthy home set market was hit by all the usual ills - video games, poor corporate management, etc.

In a sense, we're just going back to where it started, as a niche hobby, for hobbyists who like to model nice cars that work, and the market will be further scattered into retro, vintage, repro, wing, non-wing, front wheel, no wheel, scratch, bash, etc. Luf's track is beautiful, but this kind of activity will be limited to a relatively small group of people, and most racing will continue to be under the Xmas tree for two months after Christmas, like it always was, even during the '60s....

Don

[TSR]

Except that there is no "performance" aspect per se in model railroading,

I designed a racing train for Cox, once, called "The Championship Trail"... it sold quite well if I recall. Of course, the train itself was not racing anybody!

[Cheater]

Except that there is no "performance" aspect per se in model railroading, Greg - it's a pure hobby, meaning one that can be practiced alone, even if a club or friends can enhance the fun.

Don, when you read "performance" you must have interpreted it either as "competition" or "speed". 8-)

There certainly are performance aspects to model railroading. Just some examples: how slow a locomotive will run and how smoothly, how well MR rolling stock will operate on different code (size) track and through various sizes and brands of curves and turnouts, how well the various couplers between cars operate and interoperate, how many cars a locomotive will pull on level track and what % grade it will climb, etc., etc. These performance parameters vary considerably between brands.

I'd be willing to send you a few issues of Model Railroading magazine, so you can see for yourself the level of attention given to performance in that hobby. MR even features "track tests" that mimic the sort of road tests you will find in car mags, including data such as starting, top speed, and full-stall voltage readings.

Many of the NMRA's actions (i.e. their standards and recommended practices) were and are focused on improving the performance of model railroads, as well as on reducing the fragmentation you mentioned in regards to slot racing. Also, within the NMRA, there are indeed competitions, for rolling stock and structures (and some of the classes are only for scratchbuilts!). I also feel that the NMRA's proactive efforts in the digital area have accrued enormous benefits for that hobby and will continue to do so.

When I mentioned maturity earlier, it was in specific reference to improvements brought to the model railroading hobby though the formation and operation of the NMRA.

[sportblazer350]

Well, it seems that after much discussion and opinions, that some of you are talking along the same lines as the way I see it today. That is, the slot car hobby growth in 1/32 scale by way of race sets and rtr near exact scale cars. And that these sets and cars are being collected as well as raced in homes by individuals and small clubs. The mere fact that there are hundreds, if not over one thousand, different 1/32 rtr slot car produced in the past 10-15 years is staggering, and identifies as the hobby's source of growth.

I agree with the points about slot car commercial track racing. It is after all a hobby, serious for a few as racers with skills to tune a car and race it. For more, it is a hobby to have fun with. I see the sale issue like this- yes the hobby started out as a scale car, with model kits and rail cars and tracks as their origins. And in the early days it seems that slot cars were a hobby for track (with scenery) and car builders, that raced their cars on their custom built tracks. the cars, the track, and the scenery being recreations of the real thing.

The toy companies in the 1960s jumped onto the bandwagon with their home race sets. Commercial raceways were a fad, today we see that as a fact. And that only really lasted for a few years in the 1960s. To view that for its time, we have to acknowledge that the rtr cars, and the Thingies that younger kids enjoyed, helped the fad/craze grow. One with no experience could buy a car and a controller and onto the track to PLAY with their new toy car.

Key words for that time period: TOY CARS, and PLAY.

Today, we adults talk back and forth about all of this, as we are doing once again here. Scale played a part in the beginnings of this hobby. Today, it is hard to not acknowlege that scale is playing a huge role in slot car hobby growth, in today's rtr plastic car 1/32 scale.

Some ask why there is not a huge growth within 1/32 scale and commercial raceways. Here is how I see it: 1/32 rtr cars and race sets are sold in hobby shops. Not toy stores, not in commercial raceways. If a raceway were to fully stock 1/32 cars, parts, accessories and race sets, as well as some general and related hobby items- then needing space for retail sales- advertise as a hobby shop (for the retail sales) and a raceway (for the racers), build smaller tracks out of plastic sectional track, then there would be hope.

Think of it- a father/parents buy a 1/32 race set. The father/parents and children PLAY with their toy race cars and track. They see what can be built with the very same cars and tracks with more space, and there are organised races for both novices and more serious, kept separate. Other hobby items are available to sell, such as paints, glues, model kits, etc for related hobby interest. Issues for the shop owner are retail space vs track space, time to organise and run races. And the owner must know the hobby!!

Can it be done? I think so. And the shop owner must work with the local small home club racers to attract them into his new shop and to race, buy their cars and parts, and work with the novice customers to encourage them, and to help build the hobby.

A personal note- I spent several years doing this exact thing at a small local hobby shop with a 1/32 scale and ho scale track. I actually helped inquiring customers, and made sales for the shop owner. I did it to help others to get into the hobby. I NEVER got a thank you, a discount, or anything like that from the shop owner.... .....needless to say, most of my slot car money is spent elsewhere.

So- we can discuss the reasons why this or that, both today and 40 years ago. All of what is being discussed here are valid points, and a little of this, a little of that, adds up to the answer for the topic here.

I still think that this hobby is seeing the beginnings of huge growth, and that growth is in 1/32 rtr plastic cars first, followed by h.o. scale.

The issue of scale in today's world: DivIII (D3) shows that scale is coming back in 1/24 scale. The addition of a small but growing 1/24 scale company: BRM from Italy shows that scale is popular in 1/24 and hopefully these 2 small groups can help scale to come back into 1/24. Carrera makes plenty of 1/24 scale plastic track and cars, even though the cars perform as toys vs racing a slot car.But- the scale and quality is there to enjoy.

Compare to 1/32 scale: Slot-it from Italy has proved that a slot car can be: scale, top quality to race, and inexpensive. All 3 of these qualities proves that scale can be part of racing- these two segments of this hobby can, and do, live in harmony, just in 1/32 scale for now. BRM proves it in 1/24 scale, but the cars are a bit expensive in comparison, hopefully just for now.

And look outside of the USA: 1/24 scale is enjoying a huge following with SCALE bodies being built onto racing chassis. So there is proof that scale and racing can live together in 1/24 scale as well. However, it has not caught on here in the USA. Our slot car makers bang out the commercial raceway model of a racing car, leaving scale realism completely out of the picture.

Lastly, as I know I am going on a bit here, the internet has opened up a new window of hope for this hobby. Again, I see lots of opportunity for growth in this hobby: slot cars. Racing is just one aspect of the overall hobby. And I enjoy just about every aspect of it nowadays.

[Rick]

You have dozens of members of this board. What was it that had many or most of them quit the hobby, when they did? How about some chiming in on that.

You do a HOBBY because it either challenges your mind or your body AND because it is FUN. When the fun goes, so does the patron. What zaps the fun?

What is it that keeps people from returning the next season that does not occur in bowling or golf or hunting or fishing?

Why not put Womps and TCR cars in WALLY WORLD? Exposure?-none better. It's like flashlights and batteries. Fly, Ninco, Scalex, Carrerra all need to be in Wal-Mart. You lose the initial sale but gain the exposure, they need parts etc. Better to have 20% of something than 100% of nothing. I would rather have 1/10th of 1% of all the Wally World customers than 100% of the people that will never cross the threshold of a slotcar track.

Ever wonder how many new people Radio Shack sends to RC shops selling those junk RC cars? ( EVERY YEAR) When they break, junior needs it fixed, where do they go for parts? cha-ching a sale to get him a car that is repairable.

No one ever followed the format before them to make a slot car racing scheme work. JimHT somehow has been selling fun for over 30 years and still at it. Obviously he found something that eluded most all the others.

WHAT ZAPS THE FUN?

[Tex]

In my case, nothing zapped the fun. I just got married and all income had to go for food, clothing and shelter.... no disposable income. After a while, slot cars faded from my memory. Thirty-three years later, I re-discovered slot cars..... and have some disposable income!

[The Bugman]

I totally agree with TEX, marriage, kids, a home to support, food/clothing, A REAL 40 hrs a week job, etc., etc.
I am a 58 yr old & raced in the 60's til growing up and facing the real world and all it entailed. I passed up racing til the late 80's due to all the above,,and since then with NO MARRIAGE (WHEWWWWWW! T.Y.) kids grown and gone,and all major bills gone too there was extra $$$$$ so been racin ever since, 1/24 & H.O.'s,,,, THE FUN IS STILL THERE, whether RACING or just having fun driving my SCALE stuff, with buddies.
JUST PRIORITIES took over during those years, but I am sure glad I stayed WITH THE HOBBY !!!!!!!!!

[Prof. Fate]

Hi

It is regularly pointed out that I am not the market.

I never stopped. Marriage, job, kids? Well, for me, slot cars weren't the goal, the one hour "vacation" at the bench was the goal.

So, I never stopped, but then my motives for doing it weren't typical.

Rail is in decline. There has been a steady decline in circulation for the mags, and while everyone tries to figure out why, from the mystical "the kids of today don't see the romance of the rail like we did growing up in small towns"; to the sublime "the kids today don't build". While I like the railroad/model type aspects to the layout, I haven't seen that driving the hobby anywhere.

The local hobbyshop does what is proposed above. They ONLY run modern rtr plastic. One shop has a routed custom 50' Oglivie, the other shop has a 120 Hillclimb (Hasse). And the thought behind doing it was "grow the hobby/modern times" as referenced above. They even have a breakout system in the races where the race director doesn't allow the fast racers to turn more laps than a decent newbie can do (meaning 6 people on the "same" lap). All of which resulted in the small track closing after 2 years, and the big track having the same 8 racers it has had for 15 years. Oh, the big track sells a lot of SETS over Christmas. And late winter will usually bump the field up to 14 or so for a few weeks, but somehow the same hobbyists are the only ones who race.

I don't know the situation can be addressed by the commercial track model.

Again, locally, we have a club with several tracks and weekly racing. But the politics of the club has clubs dropping out and coming back all the time, so it is hard to keep track of the soap opera enough to know who is racing and who isn't.

A long way of saying that I don't know if any of this discussion is correct.

Rocky

[markdshark]

Like many racers, here in Detroit, we moved on to R/C. When R/C got to expensive, or we just became old and uncompetitve, we had forgotten about slot racing. Myself, I have a weird work schedule and can't really race either one.