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Why did slot car racing fade so quickly in 1967-68?


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#76 CruzinBob

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Posted 16 December 2007 - 06:02 PM

Chock one up for Scale on the vs Thingie thing :)

I'm currently setup with mobile track at the Ventura Marina and had a customer who used to race in '70s in the SF Valley with an actor from the Brady bunch (he said his name but I never watched the show). He's 45 and mentioned seeing a segment on the History channel last night that featured slot car history for about 15 minutes. He said that a fella being interviewed believed that (insomanywords) "going for the speed at the expense of scale" led to its decline.

While I believe Scale helps tremendously, I think there were many reasons for it's decline.

I stopped participating in slot cars late '68 and for about 20 years was quite lost. :crazy:




#77 Frenchbuilt

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Posted 26 December 2007 - 03:41 AM

Hi,

There are usually simple answers to most questions. The main reason that this hobby died so quickly was that cars were always flying off the track. Lots of low cost sets sets... Eldon... Strombecker... Sears, etc. etc. were sold during the '60s and most of us "non-professional" users tried to make these things work. The exciting box illustrations and adverts sold the product but after one or two times setting up and running, these things found their way into the closet. It was almost impossible to keep the cars on the track and patience in kids and parents ran out quickly. And, most kids did not go to the commercial tracks, or if so, rarely. The heart of the industry died since the product was not up to the expectation of the buyer. The rest of the industry went with it. There is a big return to the hobby now that cars stay on the track (magnets, etc.) and electronics allows racing to match the box illustrations. In fact, now it is fun for the non-professional, too.

Dan

PS: I am interested in Cox history, any photos out there of the factory or design area??
Dan Abramson

#78 don.siegel

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Posted 26 December 2007 - 05:14 AM

Dan,

I'm afraid your explanation doesn't hold up: sales of the home sets actually continued fairly strong, until they were hit by the recession and video craze of the '70s. For instance, Revell and Strombecker continued producing home racing sets long after they stopped their commercial raceway product lines.

While some of these home sets were not great, others worked fairly well, especially the Aurora T-Jet line, which was extremely reliable. And the Strombecker and later Eldon sets were decent as well. In any case, at some point maintenance was always needed and that's when it changed from a Christmas present to a hobby, if the kid and/or father was really interested.

To those of us going to commercial raceways, it seemed very widespread, but you may be right about relatively few kids knowing about these... I've never seen any hard figures, but would be interested in this. Actually, according to one poll commissioned by the hobby trade association at the time, only 30% of Americans were even aware that slot racing existed.

Don

#79 TSR

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Posted 26 December 2007 - 11:10 AM

The rest of the industry went with it. There is a big return to the hobby now that cars stay on the track (magnets, etc.) and electronics allows racing to match the box illustrations. In fact, now it is fun for the non-professional, too.
PS: I am interested in Cox history, any photos out there of the factory or design area??

Dan, the "big return" has little to do with how the newer cars run or stay on te track and a lot to do with the way they look with over 80% bought as display pieces that never touch the track.

The raceways went out for lots of reasons, the main one being that the commercial equation simply did not work, not because the cars did not. In fact, that NEVER entered our mind in the 1960's and most of us were surprised and very disappointed when our local raceway closed. We simply did not understand...

Very few pictures survived of the inner sanctum at Cox. there wll be a few in my new book whenever it comes out.

Philippe de Lespinay


#80 don.siegel

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Posted 26 December 2007 - 11:27 AM

There was actually a big feature on the Cox factory in Rod & Custom models, but it was in mid-'64 before they came out with the slot cars, so it mostly talked about their new gas-powered models, and showed the huge slot track for those, plus glow-plug fuel, etc... Not a hint of the slot cars, which must have been in the planning stage already!

Philippe, did you just make up that 80% figure, or have you seen that somewhere? It sounds a bit high, but I don't have any figures myself!

Also, if you look back at the trade publications from the 60s, the operators were pretty aware of the problems involved, and were always trying to balance budgets. Rents weren't crazy yet, so there were a lot more raceways in cities, and not just suburbs like now, so turning a profit was at least more feasible than it is now. The problem was keeping up the high growth rate of the first couple months, when everybody and his mother would at least buy a car and try the track. It's not easy coming up with a program that will keep attracting new people and getting them to spend money - sort of the equivalent to home tracks, the first time dad or son has to clean the lint off the car axle, replace a motor brush, etc.

Don

#81 havlicek

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Posted 26 December 2007 - 12:35 PM

"Why did it fade"... economics. Running a track and keeping the cashflow alive dealing with small margins is a tough nut to crack.

I didn't move away from slot cars because of R/C cars... all the tracks near me simply closed. As to the whole question of how to attract and maintain a paying clientele, I don't think any one answer applies. Organized racing is sure to be one way though and keeping things in check (common-sense rules and regs such as those for retro racing) so that it doesn't simply become a matter of "he who spends the most wins" is probably one good way. I do think that tracks should embrace all forms of the sport though... just seeing some of the really fast cars run once in a while as a kid was a real motivator for me and kept me coming back (well... that and the smell of "oil of wintergreen" :) ).
John Havlicek

#82 markdshark

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Posted 26 December 2007 - 03:06 PM

Also, here in the Midwest, slot racing became more of a seasonal thing. For many racers, it was something to pass away those cold winter nights. But, when summer came, they were off to other interest. This made for some very rough going, for raceway owners, who still had to pay the bills, not to mention make a living. The financial strains force many a raceway to close.

Mark Parus
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#83 TSR

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Posted 26 December 2007 - 04:11 PM

Philippe, did you just make up that 80% figure, or have you seen that somewhere? It sounds a bit high, but I don't have any figures myself!

These are from the people at FLY. They were in an interview in a slot mag from Spain.

Philippe de Lespinay


#84 Frenchbuilt

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Posted 27 December 2007 - 07:30 AM

Old stuff, new memories...

Don, what are you doing in Paris???!!!
Dan Abramson

#85 Vay Jonynas

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Posted 27 December 2007 - 09:27 AM

I am interested in Cox history, any photos out there of the factory or design area??

You might want to check THIS THREAD in which Philippe posted some very good pictures of MIB Cox cars.

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#86 Cheater

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Posted 27 December 2007 - 10:47 AM

Don, what are you doing in Paris???!!!

Don's what is termed an "expat", i.e. someone now residing in a country and culture different from his own.

Since I think he grew up in the Chicago area, perhaps he got tired of the weather... :laugh2:

Gregory Wells

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#87 TSR

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Posted 27 December 2007 - 10:56 AM

Or the awful sausage... :laugh2:

Philippe de Lespinay


#88 don.siegel

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Posted 27 December 2007 - 10:58 AM

No, not quite Greg - good theory though! I actually left Chicago when I was about 18 (couldn't wait to get out of there!) and lived on the West Coast until I left for Europe. My last four years were in San Francisco, and I also got tired of the weather there - too perfect!

I've been in France for nearly 26 years, vs 30 in the States, so soon things will begin to even out and I'll be Franco-American (still a US citizen however, but French resident).

Why did I come here in the first place? Cherchez la Femme!

Don

PS: Philippe, I saw that! And that's the one thing about Chicago I'll defend to the death: the best hot-dogs in the world! Kosher style of course... Now, if you think the French sausage is good (and it's not bad...) you should here what my German friends think of it!
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#89 TSR

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Posted 27 December 2007 - 11:00 AM

And she is very nice, too... :wub:

Philippe de Lespinay


#90 sportblazer350

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 11:24 AM

Thank you.
When you read the 1/32 forums, the guys who were around in the 1960s constantly say the scale issue was a big reason why they left slot car racing. The cars stopped looking like scale models as early as 1967. The current semi-scale, retro D3 interest that dominates this group, here on Slotlog, seems primarily the opinion of guys who were NOT turned off by the non-scale aspect. These guys persisted (or started) post-1967. The scale guys all left. Thus, the discussion here is limited to guys who don't have a more than casual interest in scale racing. It is a self-limiting discussion, and is bound to de-emphasize one of the more important elements of why slot car racing faded.

The resurgence of 1/32 plasticar scale racing is way bigger than D3 and/or commercial track activity. Thus, any discussion of why slot car racing faded out c. 1967 would have to include the lack of scale realism as an important factor, even though this forum is focused on the semi-scale, scratchbuilding, commercial track side of the hobby.

I agree completely! I wish i was able to voice my thoughts in this amount of words- direct and precise. The true scale issue is a real factor in slot cars overall. In this hobby, in any scale- we have "scale", we have toys, and we have "race cars" that are NOT scale, and have nothing to do with any type of scale realism.

I view today's retro racing as not having much at all to do with vintage era cars except for re-issue era vintage bodies. the rest is all new, just with an inline motor mount. It is however a small step in the right direction. The more serious D-3 racers have a style of building and racing that is for the extremely talented chassis builders and pro racers. This does not offer anything for those who enjoy this hobby, but are not pro chassis builders and pro racers. And i for one do not need to be used for a track marshall.....

But don't get me wrong here- there has to be a place in this hobby for those with high chassis building and racing skills. I enjoy the fact that retro Can-Am and other vintage type of retro classes is popular vs wing cars with strap motors and the like. I see enough interest in retro racing outside of the more experienced builders and racers that it can grow into something even bigger and allow more novices into it. And i hope that the more experienced will stickaround on race dates to help and encourage the more novice builders and racers to carry on this hobby.

Glenn Orban
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C.A.R.S. Vintage Slot Car Club


#91 sportblazer350

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 11:54 AM

I agree with you that slot racing's future in the US most likely involves clubs and home tracks, as is the case in the rest of the world.

As for the original question, surely the reference to "slot car racing [fading] so quickly in popularity in 1967-68?" specifically means the commercial raceway slot racing scene, for no other part of the hobby experienced the precipitous downturn mentioned.

Regarding the "hobby which is about highly-detailed, brightly-colored race car models, which are to reasonable 1/32 scale, and work reasonably well", it seems to me that the functional quality and durability of most 1/32 RTRs is not high, resulting in "racer" participant frustration, at least based on posts made to other boards. I suspect it has also caused some to exit the hobby. Perhaps the pendulum has swung too far in the direction of modeling in the 1/32 plasticar arena?

Many of us have made the comparison between model railroading and slot racing and I still think it is a valid one. The model railroading hobby has achieved a far better balance between the modeling and performance aspects, and has elevated itself to a level of maturity (for lack of a better word) that slot racing would do well to emulate.

Sorry, Cheater, don't agree with your points here. I have been involved with the current resurgance of SCALE 1/32 racing with today's RTR plastic chassis cars. Oh yeah, the reports of these cars as being "junk" is only from those whose expertise is in pro commercial racing. It is like comparing apples to oranges. 1/32 plastic car racing is very much enjoyed for reasons of highly-detailed AND good-performing cars. And the fact that non-traction magnet racing is growing in popularity lately is proof that real scale racing can and does work! And when some 1/32 cars are issued that begin to lose their scale appearances, these makers take some harsh criticism. The fact remains that in 1/32 plastic cars, scale is where we want it to stay.

And high cost need not be a factor! Take this example of the Scalextric $17 retail (yes!! I paid the actual retail of only $17 !!!) modern F1 cars, just added my own paint and decals, and had a great racer right out of the box! And right up to today's cars such as under $50 RTR Slot.it cars that perform perfectly with or without traction magnets. And it is this very type of 1/32 SCALE car that has thousands of new racers join this hobby each and every year, especially in the past 10 years, more so in the more recent years. And this is due to cars going from toy-like in appearance to real SCALE.

Another post tried to point out that commercial raceways have not used this approach with results to prove thoughts like mine. Well, look at the commercial tracks: all are made and designed for the fastest cars, and today's 1/24 commercial faster cars are high priced, and do not resemble what many of us think of as a slot car. The tracks are huge and swopping, full of high speed banks and straights.

Today's growth in this hobby is in 1/32 and HO scale, with home/club smaller road courses, and are mainly only four lanes. And take a look at the amount of cars and money spent by 1/32 racers today, compare it to today's 1/24 commercial racers. And I am talking about the AVERAGE buyer, enthusiast, and racer, not the pros, who are only in the minority.

And NO - there are not 1/32 scale racers leaving the hobby due to poor performing cars. The cars and parts, as well as tracks and accessories have been contantly improving in the past 10 years. Look at this past decade in 1/32 scale plastic cars and tracks, and compare it to slot car racing in the 1960 era decade. Today we have GROWTH, then we had a fad, and then near death.

Today in 1/32 scale, there is constant talk of racers keeping cars from a few years ago current to new issues with both manufacturers as well as after market parts. Older cars also become collectible, not turned into yesterday's trash, as in the past.

You and others may not agree, but the facts remain the facts, like them or not. Home/club tracks thrive because raceways have not jumped aboard this train and made tracks that will attract the 1/32 racers, nor do the commercial raceways stock the cars and parts for these cars. So - commercial raceways try to carry on with a old and unsuccessful method of doing business.

Glenn Orban
NJ Vintage Racing
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C.A.R.S. Vintage Slot Car Club


#92 Vay Jonynas

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 02:14 PM

I view today's retro racing as not having much at all to do with vintage era cars except for re-issue era vintage bodies.

What I find particularly puzzling is that most retro racing classes are for vacuum-formed bodied cars. The slot car offerings of Revell, Monogram, Cox, Eldon, Strombecker, etc., in the early sixties were all hardbodied!

:angry:

I've always thought of vacuum formed bodies as a "modern" innovation, barely over forty years old!

:laugh2:

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#93 Keith Tanaka

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Posted 02 January 2008 - 05:26 PM

I agree with Glenn's comments. Although I never raced "scale" slotcars in the '60s, I envied those who were members of "MESAC". In those days, MESAC was a club with a waiting list. You had to be nominated into the club.
I was/am a commercial slot car builder/racer. I do like the scale cars though.
Since BPR acquired their new flat track, it has become the most popular track to race on. "Hardbody" races on the flat track are a lot of fun and I do believe we might see "growth" in this type of racing.

Since 1/24 commercial slotcar racing has been predominantly about "speed" and/or "handling", the scale aspect has been secondary.
D3 is not a "scale" racing class, but it is a good representation of what was the most popular "racing" period in the '60s. Slotcars based on actual 1/1 racing cars is what racers then and now still enjoy doing.

Hopefully, the hardbody racing will grow in popularity at BPR. We have NASCAR hardbody races now and may have "Trans Am" racing in the future. It would be nice to see a strictly 1/32 race track in a commercial raceway, but so far the home club racers do not appear to be interested in racing their cars on a commercial track. Who knows, maybe someday that could change.

We do have one D3 racer who is exceptional with 1/32 scale cars. He builds/modifies them to "handle". He wants to race them at BPR, but so far there have not been enough other racers to support it.

Keith :rolleyes:

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#94 Noose

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Posted 02 January 2008 - 09:43 PM

Keith,

Scale was awesome back here during the NAMRA days when the car you ran was pretty much a real scale version of the 1/1 car. Your wheelbase and width were scale to the real car. Made for a lot of Ferraris! Tony P and I were talking about this the other day.

Also, does anyone remember when you were running your car on the track with some other guys and the owner / worker would come up and announce there was going to be a race on a bullhorn with those red, blue, and yellow ribbons in hand? It was a way to get guys interested in coming to the regular races.

Joe "Noose" Neumeister
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#95 Mike Patterson

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Posted 02 January 2008 - 10:56 PM

Excuse me, but if we are going to talk "scale", in terms of attracting new blood, let's first define what "scale" we are racing. Most 1/24 "scale" bodies available today are more like 1/28-1/30 "scale". A modern Champ car, Indy car, F1 car has a LONGER wheelbase than a stockcar (whatever that is!). What I'm getting at is the damned cars are TOO SMALL!!!

BTW, I'm an old fart with thick glasses :laugh2: !

Mike Patterson

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#96 Vay Jonynas

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Posted 03 January 2008 - 09:48 AM

It would be nice to see a strictly 1/32 race track in a commercial raceway, but so far the home club racers do not appear to be interested in racing their cars on a commercial track.

Interesting. At my local track there are formal racing programs for 1/32 scale with magnets for kids, 1/32 scale magnetless for adults, and 1/24 scale magnetless, all hard-bodied and all on the same track. It works since a track built for 1/24 scale racing is actually more to scale for 1/32 cars. Running 1/32 cars on the track is actually great fun.

:)

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#97 Prof. Fate

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Posted 03 January 2008 - 10:49 AM

Hi,

Oh, I remember the days where there was so much traffic that the guy at the track would just say, "Hey, lets have a real race in 5 minutes".

But to be fair. When I lived in San Antonio in the '80s, before flexis, Jim Honeycutt did the same thing. He was building a lot of chassis for people for the various classes. But for RTRs it was pretty much just Womps and Whisperjets.

I used to travel with a box with cars, but the first ones out were always the Womps. My concern was that on a mixed track a two-second car might get in trouble if kids were running whispers or womps.

There were three tracks in the San Antonio area, and arguably, the Texas Series was the "big dog" at the time, more tracks in driving distance, more races and organization than anywhere else. So, visiting the Jim's track and running a Super 80, Jim just grabbed up the people running and waiting for time and organized a race on the spot. I think that afternoon, I was in five races total before dinner.

So, it wasn't just the '60s... but being in the right place as well during the "dark ages".

Fate
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#98 sportblazer350

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Posted 08 January 2008 - 07:52 PM

Wow - someone agrees with my thoughts!! Thanks, Keith!! :D

Like it or not, 1/32 scae hardbody plastic cars with plastic chassis is where the slot car money is nowadays, yet not in commercial raceways, sadly. Since 1/32 home/club racing is very big in the US, someone needs to figure out a way to bridge that gap. There is an entirely new type of slot car enthusiast out there: 1/32 plastic car racers, who collect and spend lots of cash on their collections, as well as cars and parts for racing. The only thing missing: plastic tracks at commercial raceways, and fully-stocked counter of cars, parts, and race sets. This is a new era in slot car racing for 1/24 and 1/32 scales. there are also plenty of non-Flexi types of chassis for model kits out there too, such as Plafit, H&R Racing, ProTrack, TSRF, and others.

Raceway owners are missing the boat here, as well as a lot of additional sales and profits. Races are easy to schedule, so many different classes can keep a full racing program going just for 1/32 racers on a plastic track in a raceway. Any good 1/32 club racer can help a raceway owner to get things started. We need raceways to build the home/club size plastic tracks, especailly good is Carrera which handle 1/24 scale cars as well. And there are plenty of RTR 1/24 plastic chassis cars to race as well. And there are a lot of novices racing these plastic 1/32 and 1/24 cars each and every week all over the US.

It is quite evident as to what is not working (commercial raceways) and what is working (1/32 plastic cars and race sets). To deny it is to miss out on the future of the hobby. There is room in the hobby for the serious wing glue racers on the big banked tracks, and the smaller 1/32 scale racers on 4-6 lane plastic tracks. We need a meeting of the minds in these two arenas to learn to work together, and to play together. Count me in!!! :)

Glenn Orban
NJ Vintage Racing
NJ Scale Racing
C.A.R.S. Vintage Slot Car Club


#99 JimR

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Posted 09 January 2008 - 08:28 AM

... Any good 1/32 club racer can help a raceway owner to get things started...

That's if the raceway owner wants to (and has the space). How do you make them want to?

I think that slot car racing faded because, for a large majority of the players, it was a fad. The main participants at that time were kids like myself. Everybody and his brother was racing in '65 and '66 (which is the warm memory we all share), but our focus changed as we got older (school, girls, cars, military, marriage, witness protection, whatever). Surely (don't call me Shirley), some of us still had a keen interest, but there were no longer enough paying customers to keep the local (or not so local) parlor open (forcing more fans to leave). There certainly weren't enough warm bodies to keep the bigger manufacturers interested, and as the hobby drifted (back) towards scratchbuilding (and developed a higher cost to participate), even more people drifted away (I'm also of the opinion that the collapse of commercial racing eventually dragged basement racing down with it - here in the U.S. anyway - I could be wrong).
It went from an almost invisible basement hobby for adults to a skyrocketing coast-to-coast wonder that just as quickly burned out and crashed to Earth (how's that for fancy writin'?). It's been kept alive these last 35 or so years by a dedicated few, and now it's back to - well, what?
:huh:
Jim Regan

#100 Vay Jonynas

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Posted 09 January 2008 - 11:51 AM

Glenn:

We need raceways to build the home/club size plastic tracks...

But I don't see any reason why 1/32 plastic chassis cars can't be raced on the existing tracks at raceways.

:huh:

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