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IRRAź body rule change - REVISED


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#51 John Miller

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 02:23 PM

So, a racer comes to tech.

 

They meet the minimum .008" thickness as prescribed by the rules and can be told that the body does not meet the intent of the rule?


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#52 Noose

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 02:26 PM

Yes.

 

Now does Ron or Larry have any other questions?


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Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"

"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#53 John Miller

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 02:30 PM

This is just me, Joe. Your paranoia is getting to you.


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#54 Noose

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 02:33 PM

No paranoia, John.

 

Now tell me, would you really go through the trouble of trying to tape the sides and put gobs of paint on an .007" body and think you would still have the advantage of a .007" body?


Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"

"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#55 John Miller

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 02:37 PM

No, I'll buy the legal bodies and paint them up. Besides, one de-slot and the thin body advantage is out the window anyway.


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#56 John Miller

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 02:38 PM

I am out of the loop, and didn't even know that JK was pulling .007" bodies until this conversation took place.


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#57 MSwiss

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 02:40 PM

John,

 

When we receive text like shown below, you might understand Joe's skepticism that you come here entirely on your own volition.

 

· John Miller: The rule amendment appears to be reasonable. My hats off to the boyz.

· William Brinkley: I agree john. I like it.

· Millington Conroy: The world is safe again for dogs and little children, now back to the Arizona Boys...

· Ron Hershman: what changed?

· John Miller: That's why I like it! Nothing changed!

· Larry Mattingly: LOL...

· John Miller: Now, they just need to figure out how even the playing field so Puppy Dogs can compete against the Chicken Hawks.

· John Miller: I know that Rick has some suggestions. Right Rick?

· Larry Mattingly: Nothing new on 'nominal' chicken hawk winds? ...

· Larry Mattingly: And the beautiful part is... it doesn't eliminate .007 bodies...

· John Miller: What I find interesting is that it appears that every body manufacturer is pulling .007 bodies. I was told that NEVER happened. lol

· Larry Mattingly: Couple of squirts of paint in the 'measured area' and all is well...


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL) 
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#58 John Miller

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 02:46 PM

And your point Mike? I said/referenced all of those things right here on this board.


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#59 John Miller

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 02:50 PM

Mike, since you are sharing, you should post the pics in that thread.

 

They clearly show a dial indicator on clear .007" Lexan achieving .010" after being painted.

 

Can you post those up for us, too?


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#60 MSwiss

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 02:55 PM

I wasn't wherever you were discussing it, nor did I see a picture.

Was it a piece of Lexan or a pulled body?


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL) 
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#61 John Miller

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 02:55 PM

My mistake, it was clear .005" Lexan going to .010" with paint.

 

withpaint.jpg

 

withoutpaint.jpg

 

 


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#62 Noose

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 02:57 PM

I never saw such a picture and if I did I don't believe every picture on the Internet. Do you, John?


Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"

"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#63 Noose

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 03:00 PM

I have painted one hell of a lot of bodies and never added 5 thou of thickness with paint. Perhaps that flat sheet was coated with household latex paint. Should have been 15 thou then.

Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"

"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#64 Noose

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 03:01 PM

And at the end of the day, John, what is your point in all of this?


Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"

"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#65 John Miller

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 03:02 PM

That the rule change did nothing but bring in subjectivity.


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#66 MSwiss

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 03:02 PM

John,

 

Whose hand is in the picture?


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL) 
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mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#67 John Miller

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 03:06 PM

I think it's Ron's. 

 

By the way, I still smell a rat with all of this.


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#68 MSwiss

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 03:10 PM

I think it's Ron's.

 

Did the IRRA® rehire him as a consulant... or is he working pro bono? LOL.

Anyway, time to shift into raceway owner mode.

Carry on.


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL) 
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#69 stemmy

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 03:26 PM

John,
 
When we receive text like shown below, you might understand Joe's skepticism that you come here entirely on your own volition.
 
· John Miller: The rule amendment appears to be reasonable. My hats off to the boyz.
· William Brinkley: I agree john. I like it.
· Millington Conroy: The world is safe again for dogs and little children, now back to the Arizona Boys...
· Ron Hershman: what changed?
· John Miller: That's why I like it! Nothing changed!
· Larry Mattingly: LOL...
· John Miller: Now, they just need to figure out how even the playing field so Puppy Dogs can compete against the Chicken Hawks.
· John Miller: I know that Rick has some suggestions. Right Rick?
· Larry Mattingly: Nothing new on 'nominal' chicken hawk winds? ...
· Larry Mattingly: And the beautiful part is... it doesn't eliminate .007 bodies...
· John Miller: What I find interesting is that it appears that every body manufacturer is pulling .007 bodies. I was told that NEVER happened. lol
· Larry Mattingly: Couple of squirts of paint in the 'measured area' and all is well...


When was the last time any of these guys raced at an IRRA® race? LOL.


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#70 Noose

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 03:47 PM

I think it's Ron's. 
 
By the way, I still smell a rat with all of this.


Really now?

Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"

"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#71 John Streisguth

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 05:44 PM

I checked some of my bodies, before and after four coats of Createx sprayed out of the bottle (unthinned). I think just about anyone will tell you that acrylic paints go on thicker than lacquers. 

 

At MOST, I added .001". Anyone who adds .005" worth of paint will probably make a mess of the track the first time it hits anything. 

 

I smell something, and it's not a rat....


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"Whatever..."

#72 John Miller

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 06:47 PM

I just did a quick test myself. I started with .010" Lexan and brushed on two coats of white water base Createx, and got to .012".

 

In my opinion, if I went any thicker it would be noticeable that I put a heavy coat of paint on. I could airbrush .002" of paint without much problem. I would have painted a body, but didn't want to go through all the clean up.

 

Mike Swiss, for clarity, that is my hand in the photo.

 

002paintthickness.PNG


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#73 John Streisguth

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 06:54 PM

Ok, now when that dries, fold it in half...

 

I'm not surprised two brushed coats is .002". Next time you airbrush a body, measure before and after in the same places and post your findings. I honestly want to know what your results are.


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#74 Noose

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 06:57 PM

You are working with a piece of Lexan that had not gone through the molding process.

Go use your oven to pretreat it. Yanno, the one you baked tires in and motors in your never-ending mission to question what the BoD does.

Simply put, go ahead and conduct a seminar on how to cheat. Film at 11?

Now go get some more pats on the back from Larry. You know, the guy who had the answer for everything.


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Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"

"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#75 Greg VanPeenen

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 07:03 PM

For the uninformed spray paint thickness is measured in mils not Inches. I mil =.001 inch.

 

My advice: use Parma bodies and pass tech with out all this other BS.

 

For John Miller, spec pinions seven for PDs and eights for Retro Hawks would make the motors much more equal. Try it.


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#76 John Miller

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 07:09 PM

Johnny, I will, and will let you know what the results are.

 

Joe, a .007" body can easily become a .009" body and compliant with the rules.


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#77 Noose

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 07:18 PM

Well, bring it to tech at the R4 and try me.


Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"

"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#78 Mark Johnson

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 07:35 PM

Good work, IRRA®.


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#79 John Miller

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 07:35 PM

Let's see if this works, Johnny.
 
Paint Test

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#80 Tex

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 07:43 PM

JFC.
 
You guys go on and on and on about this stuff WAY too much. Just buy a .010" body and don't worry about it. "But I'll be uncompetitive with an .010" body". Chances are, you weren't gonna be that competitive anyway.
 
(Bein' a loser has its advantages... don't have to worry 'bout any o' this crap.)


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#81 John Streisguth

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 10:52 PM

Would have loved to have seen the video but some stupid advertisement pops up and blocks it. Oh well...


"Whatever..."

#82 Jason Holmes

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 11:25 PM

John, the second time it didn't pop up.

 

Jason



#83 John Miller

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 11:51 PM

Let's see if this works.

 

Attached File  paint.MOV   1.61MB   58 downloads


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#84 NSwanberg

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Posted 15 February 2015 - 06:29 AM

The beatings will resume until the morale of the IRRA® Board of Directors improves. :dash2:
 
Thank you, men, for doing a great job for Retro racing. :good:


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#85 usadar

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Posted 15 February 2015 - 06:57 AM

Johnny, I will, and will let you know what the results are.

 

Joe, a .007 body can easily become a .009 body and compliant with the rules.

 

John,

 

As Joe suggested, go read post #21.

Also, from the main page of the IRRA® General Rules:

 

"The IRRA® reserves the right during technical inspection to disallow any car that does not meet the intent of the rules."

IIRC, Joe used the above clause to tell a racer that he felt the body presented to him was a non-approved JK 70812A.

 

If I am an IRRA® tech-director, I will try my best to disqualify .007" bodies with heavy make-up coating/painting even if they have enough thickness at designated places of a painted body.

 

.007" clear (unpainted) bodies are not legal in IRRA® based on the intent of the rules.

 

Haruki


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#86 John Streisguth

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Posted 15 February 2015 - 08:34 AM

I went back and checked the video, no pop-up. Interesting... I honsetly did not expect the paint to hold up that well. Since I use nothing but Createx, that's great news for me. I've never had problems with flaking, but never put it to that kind of test.

 

Well, I guess we'll see what happens. It still doesn't make sense to me to try and run a very thin body with a ton of paint on it. Especially since 99.9% of bodies made from the correct thickness of raw material will pass the tech points. 

 

If anyone is purposely trying to circumvent the rules, they should be bounced, plain and simple.


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#87 Pappy

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Posted 15 February 2015 - 08:34 AM

John Miller, I have a question for you. 

 

Do you do anything to promote slot car racing? What I mean is do you organize races, run a Retro program, do tech, own a raceway or anything constructive. Just asking.

 

My experience has been that most guys who find fault with everything others do usually don't do squat. Hope you aren't one of those people.


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#88 mppicione

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Posted 15 February 2015 - 09:59 AM

OK, I have .008" on top and .007" on the sides.
Can I get a .007 on top and  .006 on the sides?
Going once, going twice???
 
I would like to let you IRRA® officials know (and you know who ya are) that I really appreciate you all for putting together this great series I enjoy racing in.

You guys take too much heat too often.

Hope to see ya all at the next big race.


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Marc Picione

#89 The Number of

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Posted 15 February 2015 - 10:11 AM

OK, I have the final solution to this.

From now on tech will cost $5. The money will be used to cover the cost of IRRA® stickers that will be placed over the 1/8 inch diameter clear spots left on the painted body to properly measure thickness. Knowing that there will be extra funds leftover that money will be distributed to the BoD to defer the cost of chiropractic care that comes from slowly shaking their heads at the crap other Retro organizations proxies post on every rule that is made or modified.

Thank you for your support.  

Bill


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#90 Brinkley47

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Posted 15 February 2015 - 10:13 AM

I love the new rule.

 

Well done, IRRA®. Keep up the great work.


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Will Brinkley
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#91 John Miller

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Posted 15 February 2015 - 10:46 AM

John Miller, I have a question for you. 
 
Do you do anything to promote slot car racing? What I mean is do you organize races, run a Retro program, do tech, own a raceway or anything constructive. Just asking.
 
My experience has been that most guys who find fault with everything others do usually don't do squat. Hope you aren't one of those people.

 
No organizing in 1/24 scale since I started racing it again. I did when I was manufacturing slot cars, but that was long ago. I was involved with HOPRA not that long ago and a track owner, ran tech, ran and organized races. We would get 25-30 guys racing nearly every weekend. Keep in mind that HOPRA is 95% percent basement racing, but the guys and racing are the same as 1/24 scale racing.
 
I will never stop asking questions of any rule making body. My point of all this is that the rule has done nothing to keep out .007" bodies if the racer is inclined to circumvent the rules. I think that when the rules become subjective, meaning, when the tech person can bounce a racer for meeting the measurement rule, but not the intent rule, there is a problem. The intent rule is never defined, and that is subject to a double standard.

"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

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#92 Noose

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Posted 15 February 2015 - 11:04 AM

It's defined...

Any part, material, technique, or rules interpretation not specifically allowed under IRRA® rules is not legal and is prohibited! The IRRA® reserves the right during technical inspection to disallow any car that does not meet the intent of the rules.


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Joe "Noose" Neumeister
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The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#93 raisin27

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Posted 15 February 2015 - 11:05 AM

Almost afraid to ask this as I am not looking to stir the pot, but here goes...

 

The foundation for Retro racing was set long before I started so I don't know why .010 was set as the standard for bodies. Why does the IRRA® care what thickness the bodies are? I don't remember exactly when .007 bodies were introduced, but I think it was before 1970.

 

Again not trying to start anything, I'm just curious.

 

Raisin


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#94 Noose

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Posted 15 February 2015 - 11:19 AM

The premise for .010" was done for several reasons.

1. To replicate what we did run back then and we did not run .007" bodies
2. To have bodies that would last
3. To create a level playing field
4. Just about all manufactures were already making the bodies out of .010" plastic


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Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
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The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#95 Brinkley47

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Posted 15 February 2015 - 11:21 AM

When you say bounce, John, what you mean is send a racer back to their box to put a thicker body on. They still compete and get a chance at the overall win.

 

Must be a serious advantage for this "non-issue" to change bodies. If it didn't matter, why all the debate? Just take those 2 thou bodies off and keep racing. The rule is clearly defined to me.


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#96 John Miller

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Posted 15 February 2015 - 11:36 AM

William, my scenario has the racer meeting the rule thickness. So, what do you mean by "put a thicker body on"?


"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

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#97 Noose

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Posted 15 February 2015 - 11:54 AM

John, your scenario has the racer "attempting" to meet the thickness rule by knowingly trying to circumvent the rule.

So after spending lots of money to go to a race for hotel, gas, food, entry fees, etc., you get your ass beat by one of these folks.

So how would you feel then?


Joe "Noose" Neumeister
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The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#98 MSwiss

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Posted 15 February 2015 - 11:54 AM

Along with the reasons Joe listed, we soon found the body of choice, the Ti22, wasn't particularly easy to marshal, and the ones with one .003" side were darn right difficult, folding over to the side, going (more) into the adjacent racer's lane.

Bottom line, while .007" bodies might lead to faster racing, they sure don't lead to better/more enjoyable racing.
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#99 Hermit #1

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Posted 15 February 2015 - 12:40 PM

Polycarbonate sheet tolerances are typically +/-10%, so when a body vacuum former buys .010" sheet stock, it can come in at .009" before pulling. How much of this tolerance is IRRA® going to take into consideration?

For those considering using paint to boost thickness on undersize bodies, I'd like to point out that paint provides essentially no strength. Ideally, I'd want the thickest Lexan with the thinnest coat of paint possible that made the thickness requirement.

Obviously, bulletproofing is still needed at certain locations on the body.
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#100 Noose

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Posted 15 February 2015 - 01:02 PM

We took the tolerances into consideration. That said, the same would hold true for .007" plastic and it would be thinner.
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Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"

"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.






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