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IRRAź body rule change - REVISED


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#101 JHMerriman

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Posted 15 February 2015 - 01:29 PM

Has the BoD looked at the tolerance of the tool used to measure the thickness of the body?
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#102 Noose

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Posted 15 February 2015 - 01:37 PM

Indeed, James.

The tool I use was calibrated using feeler gauges manufactured to ISO 17025, Grade B, with a tolerance spec of +.0000. /-.0002.
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Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
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#103 Zippity

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Posted 15 February 2015 - 02:45 PM

Congratulations to any organisation that attempts to rid the sport of cheats and those who want to win at any cost. :)
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#104 JerseyJohn

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Posted 15 February 2015 - 03:12 PM

Well said, Ron... and they are out there!!!
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#105 JerseyJohn

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Posted 15 February 2015 - 03:27 PM

When you race in a group whose Mains are separated by a Tenth of a second and races are won by less than a lap. EVERYTHING MATTERS, including bodies. Why do you think everyone went nuts when Matt Bruce taped his interiors to the chassis? Competition is fierce!!!

We all want to win AND everything you can do to a car matters...

jj
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#106 Samiam

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Posted 15 February 2015 - 05:41 PM

Congratulations to any organization that attempts to rid the sport of cheats and those who want to win at any cost. :)

 

Also to rid the sport of manufacturers and builders of cheating parts. And their cronies who still support them. 


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#107 JHMerriman

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Posted 15 February 2015 - 06:52 PM

If getting rid of people is the goal, then man up and ban them! Quit beating around the bush.
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#108 pops

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Posted 15 February 2015 - 07:51 PM

Has the BoD looked at the tolerance of the tool used to measure the thickness of the body?


I know they only measure plastic toy cars, but anyone who believes you can maintain accurate measurements with digital caliper type gauges is only kidding themselves and the people that believe them.
Dan Myers

#109 John Streisguth

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Posted 15 February 2015 - 10:06 PM

Do we need Six Sigma quality control on this?
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#110 Dan Ebert

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Posted 15 February 2015 - 10:35 PM

It seems like the only ones concerned about the rule do not race IRRA® at all or a few events a year. So for those few, please take your torches and hanging ropes to the next village. 

 

I am truly growing tired of the bickering over something you don't participate in, but want to control.


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#111 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 15 February 2015 - 10:50 PM

i know they only measure plastic toy cars, but anyone who believes you can maintain accurate measurements with digital caliper type gauges is only kidding themselves and the people that believe them.

   

What I've seen is that even the cheap calipers and snap gauges are pretty good and accurate to within a .001" and certainly accurate enough to basically compare body thicknesses. 


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#112 Jason Holmes

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Posted 15 February 2015 - 11:08 PM

Dan, well said. I only want to know the rules that I must follow so that I have a great time at the one race I play at each year.

 

Jason


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#113 Dan Ebert

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Posted 15 February 2015 - 11:28 PM

I think the rule is very clear now.  For those that can't read or chose not to, if you read the current rules in the 2015 IRRA® rule book, no dimensions are given for the tops of body only the sides. It was assumed by many that it was .010" for all classes but stockers. Seeing that loophole in the rules the IRRA® BoD put in the correction to cover that. Nothing more, nothing less. It may have taken a few tries to get it right.  But the last version, seems to satisfy all racers that race regularly at IRRA® events. 

 

Anyone that doesn't think so is just trying to continue an ongoing feud. Which doesn't serve any of the Retro groups well for future events. 


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#114 Pappy

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 12:33 PM

I will never stop asking questions of any rule making body. My point of all this is that the rule has done nothing to keep out .007" bodies if the racer is inclined to circumvent the rules. I think that when the rules become subjective, meaning, when the tech person can bounce a racer for meeting the measurement rule, but not the intent rule, there is a problem. The intent rule is never defined, and that is subject to a double standard.

 

John,

 

Just out of curiosity what would you do if you were on the board to keep out the .007" bodies? 

 

When the IRRA® first started I don't believe this was an issue as all the new bodies were pulled in .010" but since then I guess the other RETRO organization has allowed .007" bodies which is why they are now making them. Wonder why they did that?  :blink:


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#115 John Miller

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 12:42 PM

I would simply require an unpainted clear spot in a designated area of the body. I think a meatball number sticker would be the right size for the tech person to take a measurement in the area without paint. If the designated spot for measurement was located on the front end if the body, the lane sticker could cover up the clear spot without hurting the body's aesthetics. This paint requirement would not be a burden to the racer and the body could be checked for thickness on the top side.


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#116 Noose

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 12:52 PM

John, the rule is not being changed. Buy legal bodies then.


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Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
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The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#117 John Miller

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 01:13 PM

I didn't suggest that, Joe. Pappy asked me what I would do, and I provided an answer.


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#118 Pappy

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 01:17 PM

I would simply require an unpainted clear spot in a designated area of the body. 

 

But then you'd have someone bitching (at you) about screwing up their concours body.


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#119 John Miller

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 01:23 PM

Yes, but that would be the rule and it provides a clean spot for tech. I see it no different than requiring clear windshields.

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#120 MSwiss

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 01:27 PM

How would that work with existing bodies?

BTW, how would the paint requirements be a burden to a racer who purchased a legal/.010" body?

Mike Swiss
 
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#121 John Miller

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 01:29 PM

By burden, I meant adding a meatball during the time of painting. I would only add this rule to the Premier Events at first. They could use the stockpile of bodies at the local events.

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#122 Noose

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 01:30 PM

I just finished five Parma bodies for myself and all EASILY met the front dimension. Tis, Lola GTs, and BRM.

And they don't have a lot of paint.

Joe "Noose" Neumeister
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The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#123 Pappy

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 01:30 PM

How would that work with existing bodies?


That's right! What about all the guys who already have their bodies painted, wouldn't that make them all illegal?
 
So there you are again.
 
See it's real easy to sit back and criticize what others do, not so much fun when you're the one being criticized.
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#124 John Miller

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 01:33 PM

I edited my my earlier post and provided a solution.

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#125 John Miller

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 01:33 PM

If you guys need me to solve more of your problems, just ask.

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#126 Brinkley47

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 01:35 PM

Could check the clear windshield?
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#127 Noose

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 01:36 PM

John,

 

Do you even race in IRRA® events any more?


Joe "Noose" Neumeister
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The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#128 John Miller

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 01:38 PM

You guys really need to let this gooooo. LOL.

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#129 MSwiss

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 01:39 PM

If you guys need me to solve more of your problems, just ask.


How is requiring a new body for premier events solving our problem?

Mike Swiss
 
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#130 Noose

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 01:40 PM

Yes, you should.

Joe "Noose" Neumeister
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The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#131 Samiam

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 01:43 PM

It seems like the only ones concerned about the rule do not race IRRA® at all or a few events a year. So for those few, please take your torches and hanging ropes to the next village. 
 
I am truly growing tired of the bickering over something you don't participate in, but want to control.


Seems to be a common thread among those who do that the most. Sad. Truly sad. :sarcastic_hand:
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#132 John Miller

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 01:44 PM

How is requiring a new body for premier events solving our problem?


My last post on this because I don't want Mike to think that I am ignoring him.

This eliminates the question of how thick is the paint. The clear area can be measured and if it meets the minimum, how could the body be deemed illegal?

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#133 MSwiss

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 01:45 PM

You guys really need to let this gooooo. LOL.

 

Says the guy who has made 28 posts in this thread. LOL.

(edit)
Oops, added one more to make it 29.


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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
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Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#134 Pappy

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 01:45 PM

I would only add this rule to the Premier Events at first. They could use the stockpile of bodies at the local events.


So now we're right back where the IRRA® board started, giving everyone time to use up all their old bodies.


Jim "Butch" Dunaway
 
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#135 Samiam

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 01:45 PM

You guys really need to let this gooooo. LOL.

 

OK... you are free to gooooo... away, that is. :laugh2:


Sam Levitch
 
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Robert Mueller,special council.(2013)
 

#136 stemmy

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 02:04 PM

At the end of the day the IRRA® made the right decision and Retro racing will continue to grow.


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#137 Noose

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 02:26 PM

The only reason anyone would need to use up old bodies is if they were illegal to begin with.

Just sayin'....


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Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
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The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#138 tonyp

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 03:18 PM

Hummmmm?


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#139 pops

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 08:00 PM

Do we need Six Sigma quality control on this?

 

No, they are just toy cars. but if you are going to give a minimum, you need to be sure you are accurate.

 

   

What I've seen is that even the cheap calipers and snap gauges are pretty good and accurate to within a .001" and certainly accurate enough to basically compare body thicknesses. 

 

I don't see a .001" tolerance in the rule.

 

It seems like the only ones concerned about the rule do not race IRRA® at all or a few events a year. So for those few, please take your torches and hanging ropes to the next village. 

 

I am truly growing tired of the bickering over something you don't participate in, but want to control.

 

Was planning on running some of the events. Still new at this and trying not to get to confused with the constant rule changes.


Dan Myers

#140 John Streisguth

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 08:19 PM

Actually not a rule change, since the .007" and .010" sides with tape has been allowed for many years, just adding the top measurement to help verify that the bodies were pulled from the thickness material specified. 


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"Whatever..."

#141 Samiam

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 08:23 PM

Dan,

 

Nothing to be concerned about. This whole thing was only done to weed out the under spec thin bodies (.007") coming in the side door so to speak. Just get the right bodies and you will have no problems whatsoever. I guarantee it. All this talk about paint thickness and measuring tool accuracy is much to do about absolutely nothing.

 

Retro racing has been the most fair and level fielded racing I've ever done.


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#142 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 08:56 PM

Dan,

 

Just go race, there are plenty of opportunities in your neck of the woods to get up to speed and get a true feeling for Retro very quickly. 

 

Also the majority of the real people (Premier A Main makers) that any of this would make any real difference to are not even involved in the conversation. Sure we are all affected by the rules and we all have our opinions, but those of us in the deeper vowel mains have no business even concerning ourselves with .007" bodies. By god sometimes it just may take .020" to make it out alive and get the bump.

 

Also I realize that this is a QC measure that appears to have been needed for more than one manufacturer.

 

Props to the IRRA® for looking out for its racers as a whole.


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Matt Sheldon

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


#143 Brinkley47

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 08:58 PM

So true, Matt, so true.


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#144 George Blaha

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Posted 17 February 2015 - 04:12 PM

Hey ya awl,

 

Retro racing has been the most fair and level fielded racing I've ever done. Full size or scale. Thanks to the good rules and enforcement.

 

Shakey George


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#145 pops

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Posted 17 February 2015 - 09:41 PM

Matt,

 

I realize this really has no effect on my performance. The thickness of my body is not going to change my lap times. it just doesn't make any sense to me to have rules that can be abused by the tech man. i feel if there is a measurement spec. all should be measured and meet it.

 

Again it really won't effect racers of my caliber either way.

 

On a better note that Z-rail Manta Ray built chassis that you sold me is awesome.


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Dan Myers

#146 Noose

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Posted 17 February 2015 - 09:52 PM

Every racer will be measured and when racers start to complain about the added time it's taking I'll provide them with the information on how to contact the manufacturers.
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Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"

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The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#147 Rick

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Posted 17 February 2015 - 11:57 PM

This is going nowhere and all points have been made and re-made.

Did you lose the lock button???...
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#148 Noose

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Posted 18 February 2015 - 07:57 AM

No, no need to lock this up. 

 

I think folks can clearly see who instigators are. Let them have have their moment of fame. Kinda like putting a target on your back, ey?


Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"

"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#149 slotracer43

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Posted 18 February 2015 - 08:11 AM

If it is known that manufacturers are producing illegal bodies, why not just pull those bodies from the approved list? That seems so much easier to me. The IRRA® has an approved list of bodies.

 

A racer should be able to pick one of those approved bodies, and as long as they paint it enough so you can't see through it, it should be legal.

 

If the IRRA® feels that bodies they once approved are now no longer as they were when first approved, just pull them off the list.


Adam Chaya

#150 Noose

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Posted 18 February 2015 - 08:16 AM

Adam,

 

Note that the revised rule was issued to close a loophole we found. 

 

As you know, all manufacturers must submit bodies for approval. We have found, however, that there have been cases where .007" bodies were made or substantially poor ones were.  All can make legal bodies so it's up to them whether their manufacturing process is stable enough to provide bodies that meet the spec.


Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"

"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.






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