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Howie's amazing 1967 Arco coupe/sports car


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#51 SlotStox#53

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Posted 21 July 2015 - 11:05 AM

Now that's a good supply of bodies!!

Notice some Lancer and Russkit boxes, too.   :D One day I will have a stash like that.   :good:






#52 Bill from NH

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Posted 21 July 2015 - 12:51 PM

Paul, if you want a stash like that, you'd better buy a vac machine and start pulling. :)


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#53 Pablo

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Posted 21 July 2015 - 01:17 PM

Capt. Rick, I see a speck of tire dust on a rim in post #47, highly unsat.  :laugh2:

 

Ultra sano wheels and donuts - it just can't get any more perfect than that.    :heart:


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#54 dc-65x

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Posted 21 July 2015 - 01:26 PM

Busted!   :shok:    It's amazing the things you can see in these enlarged pictures. I took them as soon as I finished grinding the tires.

 

No worries, Pablo, I "put the buff " to those wheels. :crazy:


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#55 Pablo

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Posted 21 July 2015 - 01:30 PM

You can't see the dust on my wheels because I'm too lazy to use a tripod.  :laugh2:

 

IMG_6273.JPG


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#56 Howie Ursaner

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Posted 21 July 2015 - 03:58 PM

Hi Rick,

 

Tom Hansen saw the pic of the bracket and bushings and said the bushings go in the other way LOL?? I did not look at it...


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#57 dc-65x

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Posted 21 July 2015 - 04:15 PM

Well... step 1 in the Morrissey build article says, "... take a Russkit 495 bracket and insert oilte bushings with tubing on the outside for the desired spacing".

 

Isn't that what I'm showing? :unknw:


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#58 S.O. Watt

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Posted 21 July 2015 - 04:57 PM

Well, even Mike wasn't the perfect English writer.

 

"take a Russkit 495 bracket and insert oilte bushings into tubing on the outside for the desired spacing" is a little better at expressing the intent.

 

 

If you look at many the pix off the MCJ DVDs you'll see the flanges outboard next to the rims. Logic would almost dictate that as a piece of tubing doesn't work that well as a thrust bearing, at least not like bushing or bearing. We hogged out the holes and placed a piece of tubing across the bracket, soldered it, then cut out the middle to allow a gear to be installed. Earlier chassis were built that way sometimes, but it became prevalent for outboard position when we switched over to ball bearings from bushings.

 

 

It helped that I built these things back then, usually after attending the all night poker game after the LA races  :)

 

its all good and I'm sure this car will be over the top.

 

Well........step 1 in the Morrissey build article says, "........take a Russkit 495 bracket and insert oilte bushings with tubing on the outside for the desired spacing". Isn't that what I'm showing? :unknw:


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#59 dc-65x

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Posted 21 July 2015 - 05:25 PM

Hi Tom,
 

We hogged out the holes and placed a piece of tubing across the bracket, soldered it, then cut out the middle to allow a gear to be installed.

 
That's the way I build them, too. That's not what Mike is showing. I don't have Howie's chassis to hold in my hand and copy. You know, this is why I stopped trying to copy existing cars. :dash2: I'm having second thoughts...  :wacko2:
 
Look at picture 2 in the build article.
 
MCJ%20V1N3%20p4%20-%20Copy.jpg
 
You can see a big hole in the outside tube and a bearing on the opposite side. I think Mike may have used a flange-less Champion oilite bearing. I thought what looks like a bearing flange on the outside of the tube on Howie's chassis was a flat washer soldered to the tube.
 
I'm hoping Howie would take a look and chime in on what he did...


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#60 S.O. Watt

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Posted 21 July 2015 - 07:59 PM

Yes, while both methods were used, the way Mike showed I would consider a shortcut or just using the older style. As soon as I knew about adding tubing and bushings (beyond just tubing originally), they went outboard. I must have been influenced by my dad.

 

Howie is the only person that may know how it was built, but with his memory about as good as mine...  :o .

 

That may mean next time he's out here visiting for two weeks we either use the Way Back Machine, or maybe hypnosis?  :good:

 

Ohh, and adding those pieces really did help prevent chatter. When I do my '68 chassis, I'll be bringing forth something Bryan Warmack and I believed in.  ^_^


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#61 dc-65x

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Posted 21 July 2015 - 08:06 PM

Maybe the information I need to make a "clone" type tribute car just isn't available. It was a long time ago. I honestly don't remember most of the cars I built back then much less the details of them.


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#62 tonyp

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Posted 22 July 2015 - 06:24 AM

I remember maybe it was Dynamic that made a bushing that was cut down on the end to plug right into the Russkit bracket so no tube was needed.


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#63 TSR

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Posted 22 July 2015 - 10:00 AM

Tony, you are correct, it was Dynamic, and also Classic made some that were machined from brass, while the Dynamic were sintered bronze powder.

 

Rick, if you need some, get hold of me and I will send you a set.


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#64 Dennis David

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Posted 22 July 2015 - 10:44 AM

I would suggest a combination of Ginger Baker, lava lamps, and some self-medication to jog the memory cells.


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#65 dc-65x

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Posted 22 July 2015 - 11:29 AM

Howie PM'd me that he's, "working on the needed details." So I'm on hold...

 

If I had Howie's chassis in my hands I could make a virtually exact clone. Since I don't, what's important to me is that I make a chassis, make the entire car that Howie likes. If he doesn't remember some detail I'd like to do it the way he'd like it done today.

 

Onward!  :)


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#66 Samiam

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Posted 22 July 2015 - 01:08 PM

It was the '60s so memories may be a little clouded. :smoking:
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#67 Dennis David

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Posted 22 July 2015 - 06:52 PM

Rick

 

I agree that what's important is that it's done in the "spirit" of the car. We'll all cheer for that.


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#68 dc-65x

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Posted 22 July 2015 - 09:03 PM

Guys,

We have pictures from Howie and Sandy. I'll post them soon. I haven't done this lately but after seeing them this seems appropriate.
 
WEEE!!!
 
:laugh2:
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#69 endbelldrive

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Posted 22 July 2015 - 09:08 PM

Ron Hershman posted this photo from the Can-Am race HERE.

post-4-044873800 1285600860.jpg
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#70 SlotStox#53

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Posted 22 July 2015 - 10:02 PM

Sounds like the pictures have given you the info you need, Rick. :D

Is it safe to say "Onward"?

#71 dc-65x

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Posted 23 July 2015 - 09:50 AM

Howie send me some pictures Sandy took of the chassis he still has:
 
sandy1.jpg
 
sandy2.jpg
 
Here is what Howie said about the rear bracket-bearing setup:
 

RIck, I got some pics from Sandy. The bushings are on the inside and the holes are opened up with the tubes over the bushing barrel. The wheel end had washers soldered on one of his chassis and the others have open tubes and we both think he used washers unsoldered. I like the soldered on washers... I never expected to see this but here it is.

 
In other words, the bearings are setup just the way Mike Morrissey described in his build article and the way I originally showed:
 

... With the rear wheels finalized I could set up the rear bracket for a 3" track width. The Russkit bracket was reamed to 3/16" for the Dynamic bearings, 7/32" brass tubes will be slipped over them...
 
Ursaner%20Sports%20Car%207.jpg

 
Here's another look at Howie's chassis showing the bearing flanges on the inside and a washer soldered over the tube on the outside. That's what I'll be doing, too:
 
MCJ%20V1N2%20p7-chassis%20top.jpg
 
OK, there we are. Now I hope this project can get back on track.
 
Time for an "onward", Paul!  :dance3:
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#72 endbelldrive

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Posted 23 July 2015 - 11:36 AM

Here is one more shot of Sandy's frame.

1967 10 Gross.jpg
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#73 Half Fast

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Posted 23 July 2015 - 12:24 PM

Further to Howie's story in post #1. The prize giver seems less than thrilled to give him his moola! :)
 
post-4-057352500%201285600881.jpg
 
Cheers,
 
PS: Love those pinball lap counters.

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#74 dc-65x

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Posted 27 July 2015 - 06:58 PM

I've made some progress on the rear end.
 

... Can you tell from pics of my car if the rear loop brace is brass or steel. I see Sandy has all steel and I am questioning mine. It does have a brass look but you might get a better view.


I told Howie it looks like brass to me also. But we'll never know for sure. So this is a case where "Howie gets whatever Howie wants." :D
 

I think the secret to the car is probably the brass rear brace. It was so much more flexi but not a very good brace LOL.


Brass it is then:
 
1%20005_1.jpg
 
Steel thrust washers are soldered onto the bearing tubes also per Howie's preference:
 
1%20006.jpg
 
And finally, here's Howie's original bracing on the motor mounting area of the motor bracket:
 
MCJ%20V1N2%20p7-3.jpg
 
And my attempt at recreating it:
 
1%20003_1.jpg

Howie, any decision on the body? :)
 

scan0234.jpg
 
Here is a vintage butyrate plastic Dynamic Mirage:
 
Ursaner%20Sports%20Car%201.jpg
 
Vintage butyrate plastic Dynamic McLaren Mk 3:
 
Ursaner%20Sports%20Car%202.jpg
 
TrueScale Lexan reproduction Dynamic McLaren Mk 6:
 
Ursaner%20Sports%20Car%203.jpg
 
TrueScale Lexan reproduction Dynamic Lola T70:
 
Ursaner%20Sports%20Car%204.jpg
 
This is the later version of the Lola T70 that Dynamic introduced a month or so after the Arco Nats. The main difference from the rare first generation version is a slightly longer nose.


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#75 Tim Wilkins

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Posted 27 July 2015 - 07:40 PM

Almost impossible to find a NOS Mirage Dynamic handling body these days.  


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#76 dc-65x

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Posted 27 July 2015 - 08:09 PM

They sure are, Tim. I've only found two in 25 years. Any NOS Dynamic Handling body is a rare beast. :wacko2: 

That's why I'd buy a couple of examples of any Dynamic repop that Victor of TrueScale would come out with. He never did a Mirage roadster though.

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#77 Dennis David

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Posted 27 July 2015 - 09:58 PM

I wish I had the foresight to hoard these vintage parts like you guys did.

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#78 Pablo

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Posted 28 July 2015 - 12:36 AM

Rick,

How do you plan to keep those washers from coming unsoldered every time you add a rail upright?
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#79 dc-65x

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Posted 28 July 2015 - 09:36 AM

Dennis,

I started with nothing in the early '90s. I went to toy shows, swap meets, and then searched eBay. While most "collectors" were buying Little Red Wagons, La Cucarachas and the like, I bought "parts" because I like to scratchbuild.
 
Hi Pablo.

I'll be soldering the rails on either the front or back of the axle tube so the whole tube won't get heat from the iron. I'll also use the Mike Steube DVD trick of watching the existing solder on the washer. If it starts to change from dull to shiny silver I'll know to back off. If worse comes to worse and I get it too hot it will have nowhere to go as it's held in place by the jig wheel setup.

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#80 Pablo

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Posted 28 July 2015 - 02:30 PM

Thanks, that's about what I thought you'd say. Although watching two joints at the same time is not something everybody has the talent to do. :)

Marty Feldman.jpg
 
I might be doing one of those assemblies real soon, and I may try soldering the washer after the rails are on. Would that work?
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#81 dc-65x

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Posted 28 July 2015 - 05:34 PM

It might be hard to do if the rails are in the way like mine will be. But not everyone is comfortable doing things the same way. My plan is to let the setup hold and align the thrust washers. They have nowhere to go in this setup:
 
Ursaner%20Sports%20Car.jpg
 
Time will tell. You know what they say about the "best laid plans..."  :crazy:
 
Note that two out of three of these original chassis did not have the thrust washers soldered on. It was Howie's preference to have his soldered. I wasn't going to but now that I see them soldered I like it, too:
 
sandy2.jpg
 
Either way works and is period "korrect".
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#82 dc-65x

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Posted 28 July 2015 - 07:59 PM

I got a PM from Howie last night. He really likes the progress but...
 

... don't hate me too much but I had a major revelation when I looked at the post... that the brace was steel.

:shok: :shok: :shok:
 
OK, I've got an idea... but don't tell Howie! A bit of silver paint on the brass brace and it should look just like steel!
 
Ursaner%20Sports%20Car%2012.jpg
 
:laugh2:    Just kidding, Howie! What Captain Rick solders, Captain Rick can unsolder:
 
Ursaner%20Sports%20Car%2011.jpg
 
Here's the steel brace in place of the original brass piece:
 
Ursaner%20Sports%20Car%2013.jpg
 
There is some light being shed on the motor Howie used. I might pause on the chassis and do some motor stuff as we still need to settle on wheelbase and guide lead to move forward with the chassis...


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#83 Pablo

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Posted 28 July 2015 - 08:23 PM

Thanks, Rick.  :good:


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#84 SlotStox#53

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Posted 28 July 2015 - 10:02 PM

Nice early progress! :good:

Soldering brass and getting stuck into motor parts, always fun watching your builds.  :D

Any further forward on the body front yet, Rick?



#85 dc-65x

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Posted 29 July 2015 - 06:03 PM

Nothing on the body yet, Paul, so I'm going to start rounding up parts for the motor.

 

But first here is a motor build article from the same period, "Bryan Warmack Does A Motor". Of course Howie didn't necessarily do his motors exactly the same way but it's an interesting look at the process in very late 1967 to early 1968.

 

You can click on the picture to enarge it to read the article:

 

MCJ V1N1 p7.jpg

 

MCJ V1N1 p8.jpg
 
Howie, here's what I have available and you have the final say as to what's used.
 
Here's a new old stock (NOS) Mabuchi "gimbal bearing" can:
 
Ursaner%20Sports%20Car%2014.jpg
 
A NOS Mabuchi endbell and hardware. The self-tapping screws are going to be replaced with machine screws so we don't get any splitting of the 50-year old plastic:
 
Ursaner%20Sports%20Car%2018.jpg
 
For endbell mods we have talked about soldering the brush holders to the brush hoods and installing spring post protectors.
 
Here are a couple to choose from. First up are heavy duty brush springs and post protectors from Champion:
 
Ursaner%20Sports%20Car%2017.jpg
 
Next are the same items From Certus:
 
Ursaner%20Sports%20Car%2016.jpg
 
There is also the super duper bulletproofing kit from Mini-Wheels. The instructions are dated 1967:
 
Mini%20Wheels%20Endbell%20Bullet%20Proof
 
Mini%20Wheels%20Endbell%20Bullet%20Proof
 
There is also the "shunted brushes" possibility. I know that Versatec used them early on in their SS101 motor. Mura, I believe, repackaged them and sold them for 16Ds. But if these Cobra pieces were available to you and if you used them at the end of 1967....  :unknw:    (shown to the right are standard 16D brushes).
 
Ursaner%20Sports%20Car%2015.jpg
 
Arco magnets with shim:
 
Ursaner%20Sports%20Car%2019.jpg
 
The heart of the beast is the armature. Howie and Sandy often wound their own arms in this time frame. I showed Howie this arm for the project:
 
Ursaner%20Sports%20Car%209.jpg
 
This early arm has the thick laminations with fiber end plates and a Kirkwood comm with soldered (not welded) wires. Here's Howie's earlier thinking on this arm:
 

... He [Sandy] was also telling me he had one one of those Thorp arms in the Sandy's sidewinder F1 car and won with it.

 

OK, I wish we had the entire 1968 Auto World catalog to choose from but...   :crazy:


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#86 tonyp

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Posted 29 July 2015 - 06:07 PM

Ask Howie if he remembers using one of the endbells Bob Emott was building at the time.


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#87 dc-65x

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Posted 29 July 2015 - 06:09 PM

Hi Tony.

 

Boy, I'd love to see one of those.


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#88 SlotStox#53

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Posted 29 July 2015 - 07:00 PM

Nice shiny new parts.  :D

That Mabuchi can sure is a blank "clean" canvas! Don't see many in that bare condition.

Tony and Rick, what was a Bob Emott endbell like? Sounds a rare performance beast indeed!



#89 Pablo

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Posted 29 July 2015 - 07:22 PM

Those Champion springs are gonna be pretty strong once loaded up, or is it an illusion, Capt. Rick?


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#90 tonyp

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Posted 29 July 2015 - 07:46 PM

They had flat plates and the brush hoods were made from channel tubing soldered on. That's all I remember.

 

Philippe may have one on an old Kean motor.


"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

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#91 dc-65x

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Posted 29 July 2015 - 08:09 PM

Those Champion springs are gonna be pretty strong once loaded up, or is it an illusion, Capt. Rick?

 

No illusion, Pablo, they're strong alright. I can tune them with a bit of bending if needed, and if Howie wants to use them.


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#92 Howie Ursaner

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Posted 29 July 2015 - 08:25 PM

I think that the Emott endbell is later with Kean.  

 

At this race i did the whole motor as usual. Nobody was lending me any winning motors. Good motors were freaks from a batch of also-rans. I was winding them in my bedroom in my mom's apt and balancing them on razor blades. Epoxy them with Acraglass made for guns and bake them in the oven. I used the transformer from my AMT Model Motoring set at home for my entire slot career back then.


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#93 tonyp

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Posted 30 July 2015 - 06:20 AM

Ok wasn't sure I know when I first met Bob at Nutley he had them on his motors and Wayne Williams when he was working at Nutley was making them to sell over the counter.


"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

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#94 dc-65x

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Posted 30 July 2015 - 11:04 AM

OK, here's what we're going with from the above items:
 
Mabuchi "gimbal bearing" can

Can painted gold, I'm painting last so Howie can still change his mind (Any color is OK with me) :)
Mabuchi endbell with the brush holders and hoods soldered up

Endbell mounting screws on the sides of the can, not the top and bottom

Champion Arco magnets with shim
 

We're not using these items:

 

NO Mini-Wheels bullet proofing kit

NO shunted brushes

 

Things undecided:

 

Champion chrome "eyelet" style spring post protectors or the original Dyna-Rewind style machined brass jobs.

Brush springs

 

Breaking news:

 

I've just paid too much for a different armature. It's exactly the same as the pictured Thorp "Russkit 23" style arm but this one is made for the gimbal bearing can Thorp calls "CM150 Type".

 

Time to start building...


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#95 dc-65x

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 05:17 PM

The new Thorp arm arrived and she's in really great shape. Almost no corrosion which is great:

 

Ursaner%20Sports%20Car%2023.jpg

 

I didn't even diamond turn the comm. Just polished it with some 8000 grit cloth. I'm guessing this is a Mabuchi blank judging from the scoring on the shaft to hold pinion gears in place:

 

Ursaner%20Sports%20Car%2022.jpg

 

Thorp instructions on the back of the package are interesting. Don't use stock magnets but do use stock brush springs. I'm going to take their advice:

 

Ursaner%20Sports%20Car%2024.jpg

 

Here's the gauss reading of a good stock Mabuchi magnet:

 

Ursaner%20Sports%20Car%2029.jpg

 

Here's the gauss reading of an Arco magnet going in this motor:

 

Ursaner%20Sports%20Car%2028.jpg

 

The endbell hardware gets soldered up, attached with a stainless steel machine screw and the bearing epoxied in place:

 

Ursaner%20Sports%20Car%2021.jpg

 

The floating gimbal bearing is also epoxied in place with Devcon Two-Ton epoxy:

 

Ursaner%20Sports%20Car%2026.jpg

 

I love my "Toys for Retirement". I used to drill and tap the endbell mounting screw holes by hand with a pistol drill and a hand tap.

 

Not any more...  :crazy:

 

Ursaner%20Sports%20Car%2031.jpg

 

Ursaner%20Sports%20Car%2030.jpg

 

My results doing this by hand and eyeball were not so good. Now they are nice square screw installations done quickly and easily:

 

Ursaner%20Sports%20Car%2027.jpg

 

The finished motor "in the white". It will be painted after the bare can and endbell have done their duty as a "jig motor" to build the chassis with:

 

Ursaner%20Sports%20Car%2035.jpg

 

I used the brass spring posts because they slip on and off. The Champion pieces are a press fit. Howie can still choose which he'd prefer:

 

Ursaner%20Sports%20Car%2034.jpg

 

I followed Thorp's advice and used light brush springs. The motor buzzes up nicely and draws less than 1 amp. I can always change to heavier springs if testing dictates:

 

Ursaner%20Sports%20Car%2033.jpg

 

I love the big honk'n magnet clip Champion used. I added .004" shim stock behind the Champion shim per Bryan Warmack's motor build article posted above. The air gap is now just over .530" and the arm is about .510".

 

Ursaner%20Sports%20Car%2032.jpg

 

Onward...


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#96 Pablo

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 05:39 PM

Perfect, Capt. Rick! Almost as good as Howie in his room back in the day.   :D


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#97 dc-65x

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 06:25 PM

Yeah, I use a ready-wound arm. Howie winds and balances his own.

 

I use a drill press, adjustable angle block and taping fixture to drill the endbell screw holes. Howie does it by hand with a Dremel sitting on his bed at his mom's house.

 

All I can say about my approach to this build is, "A man's got to know his limitations."  :laugh2:

 

I am having fun though!  :dance3:  :)


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#98 Pablo

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 06:37 PM

Anybody who takes the stage and sings "I'm Eighteen" by Alice Cooper has my respect 100%. 


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#99 Dave Fiedler

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 06:43 PM

Good choice, Rick. I melted plenty of endbells and solder on the comm tabs using stock magnets back then! Mags weren't strong enough.

 

Most of the hop-up 16D brushes at the time had a high silver content. This made them soft and combined with the higher tension springs, the comm slots would become clogged very quickly.

 

Keep up the great work.

 

Sano Dave


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#100 Bill from NH

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 07:19 PM

Anybody who takes the stage and sings "I'm Eighteen" by Alice Cooper has my respect 100%. 

 

For me, that would have been almost 50 years ago, but I can't sing anyway. :laugh2:

 

Rick, I might suggest that you run that arm a bit (in another set-up) so it gets hot and goes out of balance. Then send it out to the reconditioner of your choice for rebalancing. The epoxies of old weren't nearly as stable as today's are. 


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