94 replies to this topic

[Dave Reed]

This is my first post since the Retro and it has taken me a week to absorb what all happened...

I'm not real happy with what happened after doing so well in wing cars for years. Retro is going to take me some time to get down...

Thanks to Ron and Mike for the comments on the Noose body. As always Joe is the master of the art.

My biggest thanks go out to Joe and Dennis for all the help and answering all the questions I had while they were trying to get set up and running tech...

All I need is a weekly race with some of the best racers in the country and I can get better at it... Any ideas?...

Dave

[Mopar Rob]

The biggest shame was Dave Reed's beauty not making the top three in concours.

I wasn't going to say anything, but you opened up the can of worms.

My only complaint for the weekend was the concours judging. I don't understand how a cars like Dave's, Jack's, or some of the others with painted interiors and numbers, etc., were overlooked for Sharpie interior cars or Miami Vice florescent pink and purple cars with sticker numbers?

On a positive note at least second and third place cars were Chicago guys.

[Dave Reed]

Good point, Rob... Some know I do paint and body work for a living and I was hoping that for such a big race people would make the cars look a little special... Some did, but most did not.

If this is going to be Retro than I think the IRRA board should come out with some standards as to what is Retro-looking and what is not...

Just MY two cents.

[The Number of]

I agree. I liked it a lot. Sometime less is more. I prefer Dave's and especially the ones Noose did for you
over Noose's personal body.

That's a little harsh, Mike. For man of Joe's age I'd say his body isn't that bad.

[Tom Thumb Hobbies]

I wasn't going to say anything, but you opened the can of worms up. My only complaint for the weekend was the concours judging. I don't understand how a cars like Dave's, Jack's, or some of the others with painted interiors and number's ect were overlooked for Sharpie interior cars or Miami Vice florescent pink and purple cars with sticker numbers? On a positive note at least second and third place cars were Chicago guys

Hi everybody.

Like Dave R. this is my first post since the R4. I have a much more involved post almost ready for a later date (me and the Mrs. headed out of town for a too short R&R) because there is sooo much to say and sooo many to thank after such an awesome race.

About Concours... what a huge job judging. In every class there were 10+ winners EASY. Some were indeed better than others but by VERY little. When asked (?) to judge I was told to judge by general appearance, neatness, attention to detail, NOT by originality or adherence to scale. I was being split in so many directions during the weekend that I honestly don't recall the winners and I definitely don't remember a car with a "Sharpie" interior or "stick-on" numbers winning. BUT if one did I assure you that it was a VERY well done "Sharpie" job with sharp "stick on" numbers. I took the job of judge very seriously and it was VERY difficult with such awesome material to be judged. Try as I might I am sure that some personal bias sneaked it as far as color choice or design is involved. I don't think anyone judging could avoid that.

I agree with Dave R that some type of guidelines should be established, i.ee a grading scale with the areas of interest clearly defined.

I sincerely hope I did not offend anyone with my choices. I did the best I could with such a difficult task. The quality of these bodies were some of the best I've seen in decades. Until some type of uniform judging system is established my advice, if asked to be a judge, is to run, NOT WALK, away as fast as possible and only come back when some other poor slob has attempted to do the impossible.

[Ron Hershman]

Concours is probably the worst thing for one to judge and probably one of the worst things to decide even as a group.

One would think there was a $1,000 prize on the line.

While one would suggest there should be standards the bodies are painted to... there should also be judging standards as well.

Maybe the old American Raceways Judging Sheets should come into play???

Some enjoy beautifying their cars... while others could care less.

Is it a model car contest??? Or a slot car race??? LOL

Oh yeah... have any of you been to a wing car race lately??? I think the Retro cars as a group looked pretty darn nice.

[Dave Reed]

Yes, Ron, as a group they do. Point being is what standards do we set before they turn into the greasy cheese wedges that real slot car racers always build towards... Is this not Retro, meaning to look back and also the word Revival, meaning as to renew interest in an old practice. Just ask Noose if they did not have standards back in the day.

[Vannerlee]

Ron is correct, show and shine judging is a "real pain".

Some of the local model club and HO club members judged the T/R Nats slot car drag race show. Judges were liking the "old style" stuff, (old fart judges) bi**%ing from the cars that had the current style treatment was very loud.

Guess the message is: clean, neat, detail, craftmanship and in the style the JUDGE thinks is cool.

Ron, could you post the old judging rules, standards if ya got a copy?

Lee

[Ron Hershman]

Yes, Ron, as a group they do. Point being is what standards do we set before they turn into the greasy cheese wedges that real slot car racers always build towards... Is this not Retro, meaning to look back and also the word Revival, meaning as to renew interest in an old practice. Just ask Noose if they did not have standards back in the day.

IRRA does have standards as well as an approval committee that approves bodies so I wouldn't go looking for any "cheese wedges" anytime soon.

Yes, they did have standards now and then...HERE are the standards of "then"...

See if any of the cars pictured in this thread would not have been allowed "back in the day". Other than some missing stack/carb detailing/coloring, they all fit the rules of "then".

I am not 100% certain that all had "painted" drivers with "Sharpie" detailing, but that meets the rules of now. After all, they did have Sharpies in '66-69... were Sharpie detailed bodies and drivers allowed then???

Not everyone back in the day ran Dave Bloom-painted and detailed bodies... nor should they have to today. It's Racers Option.

Next thing I will hear is someone wanting to outlaw Bill Fulmer's "Chrome Horn Special".

[Ron Hershman]

Ron, could you post the old judging rules, standards if ya got a copy?

Let me see what I can do... I may have to scan it in sections before posting.

[Mac]

Shontel here...

I tried something different for concours at our big race this past weekend. One of the racers had donated a fantastic 1/18 scale die cast Lola T70 1966 John Surtees for the concours winner. So the prize was more than a pat on the back. I wanted the judging to be fair and I think its near impossible to find someone that isn't a little biased. I even considered asking someone from the outside world to judge. But then, how informed/knowlegable is that person?

So I decided to let the racers vote. I told no one my plan until I began placing a number in front of each car as they were lined up along the back straight before the race. I had made up a small ballot. Each ballot was numbered for each car. There were two rules... No voting for your own car (the ballots were numbered so I could see if they did) and no touching the cars. It was judging for the body only. My main idea was for everyone to see it was fair.

It added about 10 min to the day's events and everyone loved doing it. Every racer was involved. I left the completed ballots out if anyone wanted a re-count.
Mac won concours. I think he was especially proud that his fellow racers had voted for him. Even the racers that received one or two votes beamed with pride. But most importantly for me, as the race director, was that every racer knew it was 100% fair and equal and no one person had decided the concours prize's fate.

There is no doubt in my mind that we will use this format for all our future big events.

Shontel
Dallas Slot Cars

[Ron Hershman]

Mac, we thought of letting the racers vote, but due to the size of the event and time constraints, we decided to let Mike do it, but only if he wanted.

[Vannerlee]

Mac,

Do I understand correctly that you only let those that entered show and shine, vote for the "best"?

Sounds like a plan

Lee

[One_Track_Mind]

Hmmm?
What's up with this? Did anyone else notice how the Fastones pulled this off? Or was there a "fast one" pulled?
Air ride gear mesh?

[Pappy]

I like Shontel's idea. I don't think it would add much time to the process, hell most of the guys are standing around while pictures are being taken anyway, hand them a ballot and let them vote.

In the IRRA rules committee, someone posts a reply to the rules on behalf of the IRRA committee so that no one person has to take the heat. Judging concours should be the same way, It is a thankless job because everyone has a different opinion of what criteria should be used in judging. I know I wouldn't do it and Mike deserves a big thanks for doing it.

Personally, I think when a guy makes his own decals with his own logo on his car he should win. Just kidding.

[Pappy]

Brian, I knew he had to be cheating to go that fast! Not only is he using some kind of air ride gear mesh but he is also getting his electric from some other source than the track. Did anyone check under his body for some sort of power pack?

[JEngland]

One of the manufacturers of lightweight pit boxes should design a "concours" judging box. Every raceway in America should have one. It would have a compartment to hold 20 to 30 marbles. It should have 8 to 12 small numbered compartments with a round hole as to drop a marble in the compartment. You pick up a marble, look at which car you like, place the marble in the numbered hole. You know the rest...

This is how certain lodges across America vote on a new member. Except when voting on a new lodge member, they have white marbles and black marbles. This is where the term "black ball" comes from. LOL. You know the rest...

[Mopar Rob]

While one would suggest there should be standards the bodies are painted to... there should also be judging standards as well.

Those judging standards should be announced prior to the event or a better suggestion would be two separate classes. One for exact livery of the 1:1 such as the Surtee's Lola that Jack painted but didn't run and another class for authentic '60s pro style paint jobs such as Noose paints. I would hate for someone to put the time and effort into one style and have the judges looking for the other.

Ron:

You're also correct that it's not a model car contest and the real reward should be from the intrinsic satisfaction of whatever motivated the person to paint it in the first place. Concours judging is very subjective. In most instances cars with more effort and detail usually are overlooked for more popular colors, etc. I'll pick on my buddy Sano Dave for an example. Dave's car had what I consider a nice race body. Not concours quality, but significantly nicer than a five-second Hershman special. His cars were painted a light purple fading to white. I assume he chose these colors for visibility and uniqueness, yet I would bet money most judges would overlook his cars solely based on the color.

[Mac]

Yes, only racers entered in the race could vote. Yes, they were all just standing around. It was exciting and everybody enjoyed it. It did add about 10-15 min or so to the schedule but watching all of them studying each car was cool. The process made everyone feel part of the judging.

I certainly understand it would take a little more time with more cars. I just wanted to post the info about something we tried.

Shontel

[Mopar Rob]

Next thing I will here is someone wanting to outlaw Bill Fulmer's "Chrome Horn Special"

Personally I don't have an issue with Bill's choice of color because he painted his whole car and didn't leave any Lexan except the windshield clear.

A couple of people masked off where the body is mounted and they should be ashamed of themselves. It doesn't fit my interpretation of any retro standard and makes me think of doing stupid things like showing up for the next race with only the top of the car painted like a wing car. Hopefully something will be done about wing car clear side mask jobs in the future.

[One_Track_Mind]

Food for thought:
Bodies must be painted at least three different colors, just like the drivers?

[Noose]

First, I was surprised that there was even concours judging at the event and didn't learn about it until our board meeting Friday night. We made the decision to ask Mike to do it and if he didn't want to do it then it was going to be the racers doing it. I believe you can make a body look good and the car still go fast. Always have and always will. The IRRA will be addressing some of the concerns raised about clear side specials and this has already been discussed.

The appearance of cars back in the day depended on the association in which you were racing. If was NAMRA or MESAC, cars were VERY detailed and concours was based on exact replicas. In other groups, it was based on how realistic the car looked. Interior detailing, lettering on tires, wheels, and other little things that made the car look real. All of these can be done without making it a model car contest. That was one thing about NAMRA where guys made cars that barely made a lap but won concours because the car was so detailed.

I did send a couple of guys back in tech to make their interiors the required 2 colors. As you can imagine, sharpies were used to do it. I did request that they attempt putting in better looking interiors for the future.

There were some great paint jobs that aren't even shown because guys ran different cars. Rob Hanson has a "theme" on all of his cars and in the pits, Dennis and I both admired them. Jack Beer's work on his and Ken's cars was great. I don't think we need hard fast rules on the appearance. Guys in general were advised if the car they presented was reasonable in appearance and if not they were told that too.

I appalud Mike's efforts. I thought he did a great job in judging and did look for the things I would have looked for.

[Ron Hershman]

HHMMM?
what's up with this? Did anyone else notice how the Fast1 pulled this off? or was there a Fast1 pulled?
Air ride gear mesh?

Yikes!!! We had pulled the motor out before Cheater was ready to take the pics. So I just sat a motor "kinda" in place for the Kodak Moment.

[Ron Hershman]

Brian, I knew he had to be cheating to go that fast! Not only is he using some kind of air ride gear mesh but he is also getting his electric from some other source than the track. Did anyone check under his body for some sort of power pack?

NO, but they missed the comm drop "injection tank".

[Ron Hershman]

Hopefully something will be done about wing car clear side mask jobs in the future.

Those guilty were advised at tech. No more five-second paint jobs... having to paint the sides will increase production painting time by an extra two to four seconds.