94 replies to this topic

[Ron Hershman]

Food for thought:
Bodies must be painted at least three different colors, just like the drivers?

The rules state the drivers must be at least TWO colors. Some bodies, if painted realistically, would only be one color to be accurate. I.E., 1969 Ti22.

If a 1969 Ti22 were painted in say two-color 1971 livery, would it still be eligible for concours because it is painted incorrectly??

[Ron Hershman]

I don't think we need hard fast rules on the appearance. Guys in general were advised if the car they presented was reasonable in appearance and if not they were told that too.

Nuff said... this pretty much hits the nail on the head.

[Larry Mattingly]

Happy the 'clear sides' are being addressed. Always hated that look in Eurosport racing.

Of course, Ron will have to be the one to break the news to Rande...

The R-Geo cars looked like crap. I actually apologized to Noose. I have pledged to do better in the future.

While it is true that not everyone has the painting skills of Noose, Jairus, Jack Beers, etc., the fact that personalized decals and stickers today can be generated rather easily on home computers leaves little excuse for shabby paint jobs and generic gumball numbers.

The overall appearance of the field wasn't awful. But, we can all do better. A little personal pride.

IMHO the appearance of Retro cars will help to sell the program to newbies... particularly those involved now in plastic home set racing.

And, perhaps Lou Cicconi can get Gugu cranking out a line of pre-painted bodies aimed more for the retro market.

LM

[Mopar Rob]

The R-Geo cars looked like crap. I actually apologized to Noose. I have pledged to do better in the future.

The R-Geo cars weren't anything to be embarrassed about. They were what I consider nice presentable race bodies. I actually liked the team concept look of all the cars with similar (white body with some bright orange) with nicely painted interiors. If you kick it up a notch then that will be near concours quality.

One thing I really like about the IRRA is if there is an issue or potential issue then they fix it.

[The Number of]

Next thing I will hear is someone wanting to outlaw Bill Fulmer's "Chrome Horn Special"

The finish was an attempt to emulate a polished aluminum skin. The fact that it took more than five seconds with a rattle can apparently irks some people!

[Pappy]

Bill,

I use to paint all my bodies with that chrome paint. I still have some laying around here that I've never run. If it's what I used, it rubs off real easy.

[Mopar Rob]

Those guilty were advised at tech. No more 5 second paint jobs... having to paint the sides will increase production painting time by an extra 2 to 4 seconds.

Are you still going to be able to meet Tech Time with the extra two-four seconds or will we need to have an RIW to fix it?

[One_Track_Mind]

Yikes!!!! We had pulled the motor out before Cheater was ready to take the pics. So I just sat a motor "kinda" in place for the Kodak Moment.

Hi Ron,
Not in any way do I want to make it seem like I'm and not taking anything away from you and Rande with the accomplishments you guys show as working as a "team", this part of the hobby just simply blows me away.

Keep in mind, I've never seen or participated in any major slot car event. I'm a yellow stripe rookie, greenhorn, or wet back, whatever you want to call it. So, I have to ask myself, what did I do any different? or what do I need to know to make the next step into racing these wonderful little toy cars. It's pretty obvious that years of experience is what I would need most, but how do I get there without making changes or knowing how to make those changes?

Another interesting note, when I asked you to drive one of my cars, you were able to tell me that I must be running a F7 motor just from driving the car. WOW, is this guy psychic? No, he's just that good! He knows the equipment.

To steal a quote from Mike Boemker

" Most of the guys in D3 don't care. They buy one or two motors, race and finish where they finish and go home smiling. To be "A" main competitive it can be tough with FKs."

Speaking only for myself, this statement says exactly the type of racer level I'm at now. I go home knowing that I had a good time, but for some of the newbies that are making their way into the hobby, maybe this isn't the case? and they want to know that the best motors are available to them. The rest is left up to their driving and practice.

Can you (all) see where this is going? More motor debate and why?

When the cars enter tech inspection, all dimensions are taken, IF you pass these, money is collected and you have the chance, there's a photographer on hand to take photos of such car.

Like this:



Now, your car is ready to race amongst your friends and colleagues. Just by chance you have topped thier best lap totals and you are selected as one of the top three podium winners. The photographer is still on hand and takes a photo of the same car exactly how it was teched.

And now it look like this:

Yikes!!! We had pulled the motor out before Cheater was ready to take the pics.

So the question still remains the same, WHY? My guess is to be removed and placed into the next upcoming class, since it was such a great motor in this car? But wait a second it's a different car, will it prove to be the same in another chassis? Or, lets yank that one out and hold onto it as it's a "FastOne"? Well, why not leave it in the car?

NOW, before anybody gets their panties in a bunch and reads into this that I'm implying what Butch has said:

Brian, I knew he had to be cheating to go that fast!

This is the furthest from the truth! (And we all know how Pappy likes to joke.)

My whole point to this is:

Team RPM/Fastones knows their SH$$!!

How can 'we' get them to share the knowledge that it takes to read all the secret inscriptions, pick the best motor, and not follow in their footsteps in painting!

[Pappy]

Brian,

All you need to do is watch how these guys work to know why they are so fast. They work as "teams". They have all kinds of tires, they try all kinds of gear ratios, weights, and bodies. They also watch lap times for each other every time they make a change on the car.

Thanks to the pictures and the chart showing how much each car weighed, I now know how much weight I need to add to my Warmack chassis and where to put it.

[The Number of]

First off I didn't paint the bodies, Frank at Rt. 93 Raceway did the work. The chrome paint was backed up by a coat of silver paint, it was able to take hits during crashes and not peel or flake.

However tape to put in interiors had to be right the first time or it would peel it to the clear. After seeing the paint work by Noose I am just going to pursue a seven-second rattle can job from now on. I wouldn't live long enough to even be half as good. Bill

[Noose]

Bill, your car looked fine and I liked the chrome effect!

[Cheater]

and you are selected as one of the top three podium winners.
The photographer is still on hand and takes a photo of the same car exactly how it was teched.
& now it look like this:
[pic]
so the question still remains the same, WHY?

Brian,

The real reason is that sometimes in the crush to get all the pics at an event like this, one doesn't get them in perfect sequence. I might get the podium winners and their cars the next morning, or after we hand out prizes and mess around for an hour or two.

And, yeah, in that time, a great motor might be removed to be marked and stored, or installed in another chassis. Ron would have reinstalled the motor if I had wanted him too, but I don't ask for that level of trouble. It's the chassis folks wanna see, not the motor...

What you really ought to be asking yourself is why I bother to show the bottom of the same car twice. This not not simply mindless duplication; there is a reason.

[Ron Hershman]

How can 'we' get them to share the knowledge that it takes to read all the secret inscriptions, pick the best motor, and not follow in their footsteps in painting!

Hmmmmmmmm... where to start. My suggestion to anyone who wants to know more about racing, cars, set-ups, motors, what works and what don't work, is to ask questions of others. There is no such thing a dumb question. You will never know until you ask and apply what you have learned works for you or not. Some things that may work for me, may not work for another, but it's alway worth a try.

It's very hard to beat experience... experience comes from attending races, participating in races, and trying all options along with getting track time. The more prepared you are before you get to the track, the better results you should have at the track. We always try to have all the cars built and ready to race, all the motors built, all the tires trued and sized, all the gears sleeved, bodies to be tested (trimmed, mounted, taped) pinned, controllers cleaned, etc. This allows for more track time before racing and things can be tried quickly in the limited practice time.

Now why did we take the motor out of the car... simple... the racing was over for the weekend and I do the motors and Rande does the chassis/bodies. He is the chassis/fab shop while I am the motor shop. We have been doing this for years as we are both able to concentrate on the things each of us do best and let the other do what he does best. The motor came out of the car and went into my box to take home with me.

Now here is the story behind our R4 prep... we went to the Ohio Valley race on Feb 2... we arrived a a hour or so before the Can-Am race, while the F1 race was on the track. Rande put the motors in the car while the F1 race was going on and we hooked up at the track a half hour before the Can-Am race was to start. We had the four cars we raced at the Sano race and that was it. I raced one, Rande raced one, and Bob Kurkowski raced another. I had the best chassis of the four, Rande had the second best, Bob the third best. Rande and I had 7 tooth pinions while the motor in Bob's car had an 8t. I finished 2nd, Rande was 4th, and Bob????. What we learned was that 7t pinions were way better than 8t pinions as Bob's motor had got very hot and slowed down. We also learned that my car was the best of the four and now it was up to Rande to go home and build more cars that would hopefully be better than the best car we had.

We went back to Columbus one week before the race to test. Drove through lots of snow and was happy that Mike came and opened the track for us to test for a few hours. Rande had built some new chassis and also reworked the three cars that didn't so so well at the Feb race. We still had my car that Rande didn't touch except for a new set of tires to use as our base line. The good car was almost a tenth quicker in testing than what it ran in the previous race. My feeling was the track was faster... not the car. So as we started testing the new cars Rande built, we found that four of the five were almost two tenths faster than the baseline car. This was good. We went home happy, but looking for more.

In that week leading up to the race, Rande built four Warmack kits for when we went back.

When we got to the track for the R4 race on Friday, we started testing the cars with Can-Am bodies. Of the six chassis Rande built plus the four Warmack chassis, two of Rande's cars were much faster than the others. All were respectable, but two that Rande had built really stood out. Then we started changing from Can-Am to Coupe bodies and the two chassis that were best with Can-Am bodies were still the best with the Coupe bodies. Then we took the two best cars and ran the ten motors we had through the two best chassis to find which motor/chassis combo were the fastest. Just because a motor in one chassis is fast, doesn't mean it will be as fast in another chassis. You have to find the combo that works well together.

After we found the chassis/motor combo's that worked best, we started testing different size crown gears. We decided on Friday that 27s seemed to be best. After that, we started playing with different compound tires. On Friday we settled on chem-treated big hub Alpha or JK's. Both seemed to have the same results.

On Sat morning, we started the same drill with the two best cars. Everything seemed good until Rande said try this... he put on one of the Warmack chassis and it was clearly better suited for the track conditions on Sat morning. So we took the two best motors out of what we thought was the better chassis from Fri and tried them in the Warmack cars. After a few more motor changes, we were going to be running different chassis/motor combos for Sat's race. We tried different tires and nothing seemed to work better than one over the other... until Rande said... I want to try something we haven't tried yet. We quickly trued up a set of natural untreated BIG DADDY JK tires, put them on the car and now we were flying. Those tires made a huge difference on that car, which was Rande's car. Track went off for tech and Rande says... you want a set for your car and I said I will stick with what I have on now. Rande says... come on they will probably make your car better. So I said OK, let's do it... we can always change if they don't work a hour or two from now. Well they worked and the rest is history.

So while teamwork does work... I have done the same by myself at big races and won some as well doing it all myself.

The biggest thing I can say is test, test, test, test until you feel comfortable with your car and driving.

If you win or get beat... as long as you are still learning from every race and experience... you are ahead of the game.

[Ron Hershman]

Thanks to the pictures and the chart showing how much each car weighed, I now know how much weight I need to add to my Warmack chassis and where to put it.

That is one thing we never played with at the race... weight. Rande pre-weighed the cars and we never added or took any off... there wasn't enough time left to try that.

[idare2bdul]

How can 'we' get them to share the knowledge that it takes to read all the secret inscriptions, pick the best motor, and not follow in their footsteps in painting!

There really aren't too many secrets with the Pro Slot motor and Ron has been good about giving out information. His rates are bargain basement low but the American arm motors are pretty equal out of the box if broken in well.

If I was going to give you a suggestion I would change out the stock can bushing, retrue the commutator, and rebalance the arm after getting it a little hot running it. I use Gold Dust Brushes most often, sometimes using Kofords without seeing a performance difference once broken in. Since you can't take the magnets out and be legal there isn't a whole lot you can do to improve the motor. Some of my motors have gone as many as five races in my car or in loaners. I'll probably start refreshing them after three races just to be safe.

The biggest single thing you can do to improve your finishes is to stop deslotting. Easy to say, huh?

[tonyp]

Back to concours, I remember this issue with scale vs slot car paints jobs came up and one of the series had a Scale and Competition Concours at the races, maybe it was NAMRA Group 7 on the East Coast? That way everyone was happy...

[Cheater]

Jay and I had a wide-ranging discussion about ways to encourage racers to ramp up on the concours side during our drives to and from the SERRA race on Saturday. You can be sure the IRRA board will be visiting this issue in the days to come.

[Phil Smith]

Ron makes a good point. Is it a race, or a model car contest? There are those that view the body as something disposable that gets torn up, and it's not worth sinking a lot of time or money in the paint job. If someone wants realistic and detailed bodies, fine. That's what YOU should run. But don't make rules that force your preferences on those who could care less about the paint job.

[Cheater]

Ron makes a good point. Is it a race, or a model car contest? There are those that view the body as something disposable that gets torn up, and it's not worth sinking a lot of time or money in the paint job.

First, I am going to split this thread in two, and place the comments not directly related to the Can-Ams at the R4 into a new topic, primarily so others can more easily view it and perhaps add their comments.

Phil, your quote above basically restates the USRA mindset, i.e. that performance is all that matters and appearance is of little or no concern.

IRRA and retro racing is general occupies a middle ground, where appearance is important along with performance. Comments made here and at the various IRRA races strongly support this combination. It is very clear to most of us where things almost always go if the focus is simply on race performance. And Retro racing already mandates appearance in one way, by allowing only specific bodies to be used.

I don't believe ayone has suggested we require a certain level of painting, decaling, interior detailing, etc., like some of the (mostly) European events where the car has to replicate a specific car in appearance. However, there's is no reason not to encourage better-appearing and more realistic cars, and in fact, based on many comments overhead at the races and here at Slotblog, I believe most racers would wholeheartedly support such an effort.

Another point is that there are guys who will probably never win a race but who could win concours. Placing a greater emphasis on that aspect of retro gives such participants another area where they can apply their skills.

Right now, concours is almost an afterthought and I believe we can do better.

[Phil Smith]

I found a lot of one-color paint jobs (I can supply many R4 race photos to prove it). Many have detail, but as far as paint goes, they're very basic. I think it shows that for many, paint is not that important.

Concours, as you say, is an afterthought to many/most. Instead of forcing people that have little/no interest to participate, just make concours better for those that it's important to.

It seems a few are determined to impose their will on the majority.

[Cheater]

Phil,

I don't think anyone is suggesting forcing racers to do anything. I know that's not something the board is really considering.

As for your obvious dislike of one-color paint jobs, would you object to my replica of a McLaren M8B or my Chaparral 2E, both of which have one-color paint jobs?

As I said, we should encourage racers to upgrade their paint and detail standards, because that is clearly what the majority like to see.

[Phil Smith]

As I said, we should encourage racers to upgrade their paint and detail standards, because that is clearly what the majority like to see.

If it's what the majority wanted, there would be no need to encourage anything. Everyone would already be doing it.

By your own admission, there's limited interest in concours. I think that speaks for itself.

You and a few other people shouldn't push your will upon the majority.

[Big Durl]

Notes on Concours

As both a judge and participant in more than a few concours competitions, I'd like to offer the following suggestions towards making the concept a little more coherent and, yes, time consuming. Given that the nature of beauty contests is always subjective, you can minimize some of the less tawdry aspects of a competition thusly:

1. Offer decent prizes and awards for Concours. You will encourage more participation, obviously, but box plaques at least. If you're running a series, it might help to have a series Concours award or awards, as well.

2. Post the guidelines for judging well before the event.

3. Use more than one judge. Adds to the time factor, but keeps it from being a situation where contestants are playing to the tastes of one person, AND keeps them from blaming one person for being a Philistine. Or worse.

4. Judge with a points system, based on 1 to 10 (or 1 to 5) in categories of Creativity, Detail, and Craft.

Creativity is judged on your original idea or innovation. This can be in how you have created a new design or recreated a design from the past.
Detail can also be thought of as "believability", as in "how much does the car look like an actual race car".
Craft is how well all visible aspects of the car are put together. Fit and finish.

By awarding each entry 1 to 10 points in each category, then adding up the total points, no single aspect of "appeal" takes precedence. A bold car, poorly put together will lose to a one-color job that looks like a real racer, or is really put together well. And vice-versa. Someone with little painting or design skills has a shot if he or she takes the time to finesse the details of their construction. Someone who can't do the fit and finish (ahem), has a shot with a really cool idea done halfway decently.

If you have two judges, each using these criteria, you will have the fairest possible method of judging Concours. It will certainly take extra time, but if you want to make Concours viable to all your racers, I feel this is the best way to do it.

[Cheater]

The Mid-South USRA guys select two concours winners, one for "Best Appearing" and one for "Most Realistic".

One of the comments made to me was that, as fabulous as Noose's cars look, their paint jobs are not what one would see on real cars.

And that's one dilemma in concours judging: what should win, the car that is in all respects a replica of a real car or a car with a fabulous and technically-stunning paint job? Using the Mid-South approach, each can be a concours winner.

[Noose]

I agree on two approaches. I have however had some that met both criteria. I had them too in Columbus but did not use them. Dennis Samson's winning F1 car was one I did for him and it had more of the realistic look and I had no problem with his being chosen over mine or the one that Jack Beer's ran that I painted.