152 replies to this topic

[Tom Thumb Hobbies]

Here we are with yet another motor issue in Retro racing. As an IRRA^® BoD member I can assure you we are working towards a solution. Some of you wanted this "fixed" yesterday but I think you already know that's not feasible. We can not make a "knee jerk" reaction to this because it is at the core of our program. Act too fast, without all the information and without studying all the possibilities, and you often compound the problem. And for the conspiracy theorists out there, well don't you think we should wait for confirmation and all the evidence before we lynch Tim and JK? There will be a solution.
 
As a track owner and a Premiere Race host it is my responsibility to make my event as fair and fun as possible. To that end I will do what I think needs to be done, up to and including hand-outs in all classes, to make things as level as possible. I firmly believe the IRRA^® will come up with a workable solution if this is indeed a major problem and not just a momentary blip. However we have no control over the Chinese manufacturers and little sway with JK. We simply don't have a big enough economic punch.
 
I personally believe there is no ulterior motive or greed agenda associated with this from JK. But we are at his mercy if any motor changes need to be made.
 
I'm posting this now so those that hate hand-outs will know that, as of now, hand-outs are a possibility at the R4/10. If that changes your mind and you won't attend then I'm sorry. I'm hoping that a solution is coming soon and this will be a non-issue.

[Steve Deiters]

Not that it matters to the masses, but hand-out or not I'm planning on being there. Whatever the rules are at the time... well... that's what they are.

[1fastdude]

Equalism is always better and closer racing in MY opinion.

[Butters37]

Thank you for posting, Mike. Can't wait for R4/10 run what you brung or hand-out... March can't come fast enough.

[Cap Henry]

IMO, why not just mandate use of the new motors? This keeps it "fair" without having to go handout.

Guys can use up the old motors for weekly/series racing, keep the big races to what's still readily available.

[JerseyJohn]

IMO everyone racing under the same rules evens the field and keeps things fair. 
 
After that it skill, determination and a little luck... Any Hawk can be used same as a PD with or without bearing.

 

That's it!!!

[MSwiss]

Cap,

I think it's too early to make any ruling.

We have seen the new motor, inning Sano 10 in F1, setting a new lap record.
Running second fast lap time,last weekend, and finishing third in F1, at Tom Thumb, my guess, Jason's best Retro race finish to date.
Running fast time by a .1, in Can-Am in one of the Mains, at Post Jeff, a speedbowl.
And at the same track, a TQ, a new track record, and a second place, in Stock Car.

Seems like too many stellar performances not to let guys with older motors battle against them.

[elinsley]

No matter what the motor rules are I'll be attending again this year.

[Butters37]

Actually it wasn't, Swiss. But way to sound so nice.

[Butters37]

LOL.

[Cap Henry]

Mike,

I fully understand all of that, but Mike M is already posting the possibility of hand-outs at R4, so I was posting a possible solution for that race.

I realize only allowing the new motors isn't a viable solution across the board for all IRRA^® races, but for this big race it seems like a fair option without going full hand-out.

[Dennis Krivacek]

Kudos, Mike, for exploring all options

[B.C.]

What if all the new motors were sent to the west coast and had them triple-zapped or turbo blasted, that would make them faster. it seems to make other motors cost several dollars more for that service.

[tonyp]

LOL.

[MSwiss]

Actually it wasn't, Swiss. But way to sound so nice.

 
Jason,
 
I usually glance at all the Retro results, but if you've finished better than third in a field that large/strong, I apologize.

My point was that it wasn't third in an eight-entry race.

I'll add my name to the list of whatever motor rules McMasters decides on; they wouldn't be a factor in my participation.

[Butters37]

I was just giving you some grief Swiss LOL. Wasn't serious at all.

[MSwiss]

Add Sam Rackham's F1 win at BP, on the Gerding King, as another racer with a stellar performance using the new 7R motor.

[gfox]

So... hand-outs or no R4/10?

[Tom Thumb Hobbies]

Not all evidence has been been gathered. Close but not all. I've given myself a deadline of January 1 to announce. It will be no later than that.

[Tom Thumb Hobbies]

After much thought and discussions with racers I have decided to split the two premier classes, one hand-out and one not. I don’t think there is any perfect solution to the "motor problems" some think we have and I’m not convinced hand-outs are an answer. But I do think it is worth trying and doing so "back to back" should help to compare the two options.
 
GTC and GTC Pro will, of course, remain "hand-out" classes. This year Can-Am will also use hand-outs. The motor will be the JK Retro Hawk with a new tamperproof seal. Any motor purchased for the GTC classes will be eligible for Can-Am only if the unused motor(s) are surrendered at the time of GTC tech and the motor used in GTC remains in the car and the car is impounded until Can-Am motors are handed out Saturday morning. No exceptions. Both Senior and regular Can-Am divisions will be the same. F1 will remain the same as before and use racer supplied IRRA^® legal motors.
 
If you look at recent races IRRA^® Retro racing has never seen closer results. Hand-outs may(?) help calm claims of inconsistency in motors, cheating with the motors, or complaints that some buy dozens of motors to find that "magic bullet." Time will tell. 
 
The logistics of handing out motors at a race the size of the R4 are complicated. I think I have a plan that will have as small as possible impact on time while still allowing equal and adequate time to prepare your hand-out motors. Regardless it will add some length to the day. That is one reason I decided not to use hand-outs for F1 on Sunday. I don’t want to delay your trip home any more than needed.
 
This may turn out to be a great “equalizer.” If so I will look at expanding hand-outs to all classes and more events. Or not. It could be a huge “cluster.” If so I will look at what went wrong and if it can, or should, be fixed. No matter, the tenth running of the R4 will be close, competitive, and a ton of fun. 

In addition to the Senior divisions and Can-Am hand-outs we are looking at a few more things to make the tenth running of the R4 stand out from the rest.
 
Stay tuned!!!
 
BTW... I'm locking this topic for a week to avoid "knee-jerk" responses. I'm sure there will be as many opinions about this as there are racers in Retro. If you just can't wait to blow me up, send an email or a PM.

[Tom Thumb Hobbies]

Unlocked, as promised.

 

During the past week, I have had 31 emails/FBM/PM/text/phone calls about this. Of those, only three were negative, five were neutral, and the rest positive. I was surprised by who the negatives came from. And I also expected the results to be completely opposite from what they were.

 

But… consider this. All those who claimed racers won not because of the motor, now it’s your chance to prove it. All those who complained of others buying hundreds of motors to find that “silver bullet” won’t have to worry about it here. And those accusations of small wire, too many winds, not enough winds, different brushes, different magnets, etc., won’t have a problem. All motors will be from the same batch with, or without, any of those perceived problems and will all be equal. If you are good as you think you are you can still win with a hand-out.

 

JK has spent major money trying to reduce the variability in the HR. And signs point to the fact that it has worked. A very good thing for future events. But, right now is somewhat of a difficult period. The tightening of the tolerances has greatly reduced the chances of finding that stud of a motor and also reduced the chance of getting stuck with a total dud. We all know someone who has that special stash of bullet motors. And those who don’t have any want some. The “Haves” and the “Have Nots.” Now with the tightened tolerances the “Haves” will still have studs (for a while at least) and the “Have Nots” are becoming the “Never Wills.” I’m going to guess that those who complain the most about hand-outs will be the “Haves.” A prominent racer recently told me he feels cheated now that we are using hand-outs. Cheated?? What could be more fair and equal than everyone having the same motor and the same prep time?

 

So, some basic details. I will have more than enough motors on hand. Way more than enough. Hand-outs will start on Friday morning. I’m thinking four (4) motors each to start but that could increase. These motors can be used in both GTC and Can-Am. All motors will be impounded overnight in sealed containers. Any motor that leaves the raceway at any time will be disqualified. No, we will not do body searches at the door. I’m relying on the integrity of our racers to follow this rule and self-police anyone who might be tempted to do otherwise.

 

I wouldn’t do this if I didn’t think it was worth trying. It will be significantly more work for the race officials. I also believe I have a plan to minimize the impact on the schedule.

 

If we never try anything new this gets boring rather quickly. I’m pretty sure that in the beginning many thought that IRRA^® or Retro in general, or using sealed motors would never work. I’m glad nobody listened.

 

Flame on!!

[slick in the slot]

1) How much will motors cost?

 

2) If we purchase four motors on Friday for the GTC race, can we purchase more motors on Saturday for the Can-Am?

 

3) Will Friday's motors need to be turned in at GTC tech or at the end of the day?

 

4) How are all the racers going to get enough track time on Friday??? 

[Cap Henry]

The track time to break-in/test motors is my number one concern.

 

Any thought to being able to get motors Thursday to allow more time?

[Noose]

Thanks but no thanks.

[Steve Deiters]

I'll keep it simple. The rules will be the rules. They affect everyone equally. Once we pay our entry fee a racer agrees to conform to them. I don't have a problem with that and hopefully other racers will also.

 

Sounds like a lot of effort and thought was put into this policy before commitment of this program not to mention decades of experience by Mike McMasters that brought it to bear. I'll defer to these factors any day and look forward to the R4/10. I hope other racers will do so also. 

 

See everyone in March.