152 replies to this topic

[gfox]

I agree with Cap; being able to purchase your motors on Thurs. will alleviate, but not eliminate, the limited track time available to break-in motors.

[elinsley]

The track time to break-in/test motors is my number one concern.

 

This isn't an issue for GTC so why would this be an issue for any other class?

 

Get the motors Saturday morning, break them in, and go practice with your group. Everyone getting the motors on Saturday morning seems fair across the board.

[ejgehrken]

Eric,

I agree with you that it's not a problem in both GTC classes as this class is now a hand-out class at all Premier races. These races are run under a "one and done format" which requires you to only have one competitive motor.

The Can-Am race at the R4 requires you to race your way into the main (top 16 from quarters go to semis and top 4 from each semi go to the main). This format requires you to have up to 3 competitive motors.

This leads me to believe many racers are concerned with not having enough time to break-in and test enough hand-out motors to be able to race their way into the main.

[Cheater]

Eric,

You won both Coupe and Can-Am at the most recent Retro East event, I am told. I also have heard that you used the same 7R motor to take both classes. Can you confirm?

[ejgehrken]

Yes, I did and the motor kept its speed and brakes throughout both races.

[Brinkley47]

Thursday hand-outs would be my preference. If you are going to let us get 8 (for both Coupe and Can-Am) then let us get them Thursday. We turn them in at close every night. If we don't turn them in, those motors are out. I would be looking at at least 8 hours break-in time and probably more to get those motors run in. That is tough when I am only getting on the track once every hour or so.

[John Streisguth]

My recent experience with hand-out motors has not been good.  

 

At Retropalooza this year, one of the motors had the positive terminal marked incorrectly. I found this out when I went to try it on the track, and the car moved backwards. I thought maybe I made a mistake. Nope, it was the motor. At that point I really had no time to do any break-in of an additional motor, so I had to go with the one remaining one.  

 

At the Fall Brawl, one motor was an absolute turd, the other was just slow. I broke in four motors exactly the same way, two for myself and two for Troy Taylor. Troy's were very good, Mine were not.  

 

Luck of the draw, but if I were making a long trip for a race I would not want to leave my chances to "luck," especially with a limited amount of time to see what you've ended up with.

[Butters37]

I love the idea. I'll be there with money in hand and ready to do whatever mike wishes. Seems simple. If you are prepared and it's not all about the motor what's the big deal? As I was told on Facebook, it's not luck, it's preparation. Seems easy since everyone will have the same amount of time to prepare!

Noose not coming? You really going to skip a race because hand-outs? Really? Well I guess that's one more pit spot for someone else. And the ORS has tech guys who are more than capable of handling the situation. With the use of the Swiss tool (a tool available to anyone. No special tools brought in by one person) Eric and Bill made quick work of tech the last two races and hopefully those two will do the same at the r4.

I'm ready, Mike! Take my money, sir. It should be spent supporting the track anyway. Not at other shops or even worse, online. You are doing all the work and deserve the profit to the fullest.

[MSwiss]

the Swiss tool (a tool available to anyone)

Not since 2002. LOL.

[Butters37]

It's a great tool and it's nice to have the exact tool you are being teched with. Made my ORS experience much easier since I bought one!

[slick in the slot]

Question: Will these hand-out motors be legal for other IRRA^® events.

 

I recall a short-shaft Hawk that was disallowed by the IRRA^®.

[Cheater]

Gil,
 
Yes.
 
To the best of my knowledge, the short-shaft Hawk Retro was never used as a hand-out motor at a Premier event. Just to remind, the short-shaft Hawk Retro is physically the same as the faster Hawk 7, though the motors do carry different markings. Which is also why IRRA^® does not allow the endbell side shaft to be shortened on legal Hawk Retro motors.

[B.C.]

As has been noted at least twice, the decision has been made. So deal with it. My thought is this (opinions are like anal orifices, we all have one and they all stink).

 

Mike M. has made the call, I like it – it is fair for all. I don't have a dog in the fight as far as the time and expense to travel, so I understand that concern. I used to travel for years, so I have a familiarity with it. but I do have a dog in the fight as far as trying to support our hobby/sport. Dissension usually doesn't have any redeeming qualities.

 

If breaking-in motors is the issue, that is a valid concern. But, if the concern is that we still have to find that silver bullet then all the work that Tim with JK has done is for naught. By all accounts, he has invested a fair amount of money and time to improve the motor, the quality, and most of all to level the playing field as much as a $13 motor will allow.

 

So with that in mind, obviously too late for the R4 this year, but perhaps later this year, could this be done? Directed towards Tim with JK. Could you offer a Retro Hawk that is already broken in, with a serial number that is stamped/etched on it that would be readable through the plastic bubble on the package? Yes, there would be extra expense and the motor would cost more. That would free up time for the track owner not having to spend time marking each motor, merely record on the day they are handed out and who purchased what serial number. The racer would have more time to practice and set up their car. Koford in the past, and maybe still does had, on the card that the Group 12 motors came on, a sentence in the description saying broken in for 40 minutes. I don't know how much extra that added to the cost of the motor. I would think it wouldn't cost too awful much to make a stand capable of breaking in a lot of motors at once.

 

The regular Retro Hawk would still be available for non-hand-out races if racers wanted to purchase those.

 

I think the breaking-in issue is overblown in that car setup and driver ability are still more important. with the reliability and speed equality of these motors, from what I have seen and with what I have purchased and raced, they are very close.

 

Are we racing to have fun, have a good time, and make friends that share our passion for this sport/hobby or if we don't win we aren't happy and will take our toys and go home?

 

At the end of the day it is still imperative that we support raceways. I have never raced at Mike M's track but he must be doing something right since it has survived for a lot of years. He puts a lot of time and effort and I would guess money to have what appears to be a first-rate facility.

[Dan Ebert]

Part of the problem is racing at tracks that run over 14 volts have been known to kill the brakes on RH motors. Plus any track running over 14 volts has had some history of short motor life with RHs. 

 

So the one and done format is fine for hand-outs. But-Can Am and F1 are race into a Semi and than a Main. Which means the possibility of 3 motors being needed in Can-Am. (I know F-1 is not hand-out so don't correct me.)  

 

If a limit of four hand-outs for Coupe and four for Can-Am is the limit, that is fine. But I am sure complaints will be heard about the amount of motors allowed if someone feels they didn't get good motors.

 

I was making plans to attend this year. I had moved the week we normally take vacation just to attend. But now I am on the fence with Can-Am being a hand-out race. The added cost isn't so much a dealbreaker for me. But being able to get on the track to test and check motors Saturday will be my concern.

 

If motors are allowed to be purchased Thursday that would be a huge help. Also if unused Coupe Motors are allowed to be used in Can-Am that would be a bigger help. 

[Cap Henry]

This isn't an issue for GTC so why would this be an issue for any other class?
 
Get the motors Saturday morning, break them in, and go practice with your group. Everyone getting the motors on Saturday morning seems fair across the board.

Eric,

 

Last year GTC Pro wasn't hand-out. Plus you're getting two more motors then last year. So same amount of time to break-in and test more motors. And last year the, didn't the guys running hand-out get their motors while the non-hand-out guys got to practice, point being they got extra time to break their motors in. This year that can't be done, unfair to the group that goes first.

I personally only break the motors in on the track, I found running them on power supplies for less than 12 hours a waste LOL.

I'll be the first one to say I hate hand-out races. Motors aren't everything, but no one is going to put in a motor that's a tenth slow and hope for the best.

[Cheater]

Also if unused Coupe Motors are allowed to be used in Can-Am that would be a bigger help.

That's what I understand Mike McMasters to be saying in his post #21: "These motors can be used in both GTC and Can-Am."

[mgerbetz]

Just my opinion but I just don't like hand-out motors. I have yet to attend a Retro event although I would love to. Hand-out motors are too "IROC" for me. I enjoy the challenge of "figuring things out." That is why I like the hobby.

I understand your thinking and all, but I just would rather figure out how to win; motor challenges included.

[Dan Ebert]

A single post where the rules for the event and hand-out classes would be useful instead of in the middle of 40-plus post thread. 

[Butters37]

Dan,

Unused coupe motors can be used in Can-Am. All motor numbers are registered to the racer and as long as left in impound Friday night they may be used Saturday. So off the bat four motors at your disposal.

Want to do 12-hour break in? Bring a few power supplies and start two motors when they are first handed out Friday. Take them to impound and boom... you have two motors for Saturday ready to go. If you want to break them in on the track??? Well, put them in run limited practice and risk it.

It's called a strategy... it's now part of the game instead of who can spend the most money on motors from now until then. Simple and fair.

[Cap Henry]

I'm not saying I need more then four motors. I just want sufficient time to break them in and test them.

I'm by no means trying to put down the event, I'll be there. But I would like maximum of time to prepare and sort things out.

[Josh Crutchfield]

Those showing up Saturday will be at a disadvantage versus those that raced GTC Friday and had time to break in multiple motors..

[Taylor Davis]

This is one of the biggest races of the year, why not run both?

[Dan Ebert]

And if they decide to pass them out Thursday guys get two days with them.  

Hmmm... better not show Saturday morning unless you are feeling lucky.

[Mike Patterson]

Why be allowed to break in the motors at all? Bolt it in the car and drive it. It would vastly speed things up, and everyone would be at the same disadvantage.

 

The only downside I can see to this idea is the incredible amount of bitching and moaning it would create.

[Butters37]

The fast guys will still be fast. Now we find out who can do what with a time crunch.

I doubt anybody that has a chance to make the Main will show up Saturday morning, Josh. Just like in previous years they know what they are getting into. Friday seems fair for motors because not everyone will be able to get there Thursday.

The event officially begins with Coupe on Friday and that is when motors should be handed-out at the start of the event. Not during open or controlled practice. In my mind it's as simple as that.