82 replies to this topic

[MSwiss]

Quote Taylor Davis:  "I did, there is only a convenience advantage and no potential performance advantage."
 
​There's your answer Mike, there is NO further discussion required.  A 15 cent axle performs EXACTLY as well as a 10 dollar Bartos axle, it's ONLY a issue of convenience NOT performance.  You really need to drop this line of reasoning, it's not applicable.
 
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It's 66 times more expensive. These weighted guide's are only 1.21 times more than the pinned guide I sold 1000+ of, and no said a thing.

Oh, that's right, they weren't faster, just stronger.

My motor bracket took 9 of the 12 podiums at R4?

Dale Yamashita just had a dominating performance, with one, in his Bartos chassis at the ZFoS.

Are you coming after that next?

And the question I already posed.

What if Bartos comes up with a World beating chassis?

One that is perfectly legal, but a clear advantage.

Will you go after that?

After all, it would force anyone with designs of winning, to shell out $135+.

If Taylor or yourself can't answer that question with a simple Yes or No, than to quote you, NO further conversation required from either one of you.

[JimF]

IMO, this is getting a little silly. I doubt that the root of the objections is cost. I think the problem with the item might be that it (is) or at least perceived as a manufactured advantage. If Bud builds a better mousetrap great, anyone with an iron and a dremel can copy it. I don't think this guide can be duplicated with simple hand tools. IIRC, one of the original premises of Retro was to eliminate a technology or manufacturing war. I think that is why motors have been capped, bodies have been strictly regulated certain kinds of tire rubber are outlawed.......etc. There are certain things that go into retro that have to be manufactured and others that probably should be. However, I don't see any benefit overall in a manufacturing arms race to develop ever "better" and more expensive parts to gain tiny incremental advantages even if they are imaginary. Once this kerfuffle blows over what will come next? Super sophisticated crown and pinion gears? Axles of "special" alloys that weigh half what a simple steel one does? The nature of racers being what it is, they'll buy anything...........literally anything, if they think they'll be faster.

 

Given the nature of "scale" racing, that is an area where constant innovation is the norm. I mean think of stock car bodies that look like GTPs and GTPs that look like wing cars, 16-ds that have become as sophisticated and complex as "C" cans and GTP-12 chassis that are as sophisticated as Eurosports were not that long ago. Seems to me that retro does not need to follow that path.

[Jay Guard]

It's 66 times more expensive. These weighted guide's are only 1.21 times more than the pinned guide I sold 1000+ of, and no said a thing.
Oh, that's right, they weren't faster, just stronger.

You just answered your own question here, it looks like you do get it!

My motor bracket took 9 of the 12 podiums at R4?
Are you coming after that next?

It's a high quality motor bracket that is priced in line with many others, and due to it's high quality and precision actually makes it easier for other to build a high quality chassis and participate in Retro racing.   But if you really want to go back to JK guide bring it up to the BoD and if they approve it I'll work to it.

And the question I already posed.
What if Bartos comes up with a World beating chassis?One that is perfectly legal, but a clear advantage.Will you go after that?
After all, it would force anyone with designs of winning, to shell out $135+

NO! Others could just build their own clone for what, $50 or so.

If Taylor or yourself can't answer that question with a simple Yes or No, than to quote you, NO further conversation required from either one of you.

 

You keep acting like 'I'm "going after" something (or you) and that just isn't it at all.  I'm actually interested in trying to preserve what many believe is the "Spirit of Retro", are you?  The quest for all out speed has gotten at least one other form of racing into something of a downward spiral, I just don't think that is what we want to happen to Retro.  You above almost all others should understand this.

[Jay Guard]

Clearly Jim F "Gets it"!!  Thanks Jim!

 

I agree this is getting ridiculous and really doesn't warrant any additional discussion. Let's let the IRRA BoD decide and we'll all abide by their decision, Simple!

[MSwiss]

Jim,
Your comment;
"Bud builds a better mousetrap great, anyone with an iron and a dremel can copy it."

What percentage of the chassis, raced in your series, are built by you?

Do you sell them or give them away?

[JimF]

Jim,
Your comment;
"Bud builds a better mousetrap great, anyone with an iron and a dremel can copy it."

What percentage of the chassis, raced in your series, are built by you?

Do you sell them or give them away?

 

Whaaaat?

 

Most of them are built by me and I certainly sell most (almost always through a raceway) but also give some away as well. I will also fix them for almost nothing. Point being, I'm glad to share how to do it with anyone that asks and yes, they can do it themselves with tools they already have. I fail to see any correlation between that and this potential escalation of manufactured technology that retro doesn't need.

[MSwiss]

Clearly Jim F "Gets it"!!  Thanks Jim!
 
I agree this is getting ridiculous and really doesn't warrant any additional discussion. Let's let the IRRA BoD decide and we'll all abide by their decision, Simple!

I just posted in our private forum, on whether we need to take a vote.

If we do, I'll vote "No" to banning it.

Not because I'm the one making them.

I can use the time for more lucrative endeavors.

But because it opens up a can of worms that effects all manufacturers.

Complex milled chassis parts, for one.

Another example is if company X came up with a great crown gear, but sold it for 8.25.

Forget that it's perfectly true, and lasts forever, and your car goes .002 faster, because if the trueness.

Using the rational in this thread, by some, it's 75 to 78 cents more expensive than the norm, so it should be banned.

[MSwiss]

Whaaaat?
 
Most of them are built by me and I certainly sell most (almost always through a raceway) but also give some away as well. I will also fix them for almost nothing. Point being, I'm glad to share how to do it with anyone that asks and yes, they can do it themselves with tools they already have. I fail to see any correlation between that and this potential escalation of manufactured technology that retro doesn't need.

You said anyone with a dremel and soldering iron can do it.

Than why don't they?

Because they know they won't do as good/ beautiful of a job.

If you were concerned on not advancing technology or cost, you would not experiment.

"In Can-Am, you can buy any style chassis you want, as long as it is a #1."

You downplay your immense talent, just like Bryan acts like he is wittling those complex spur gears, at home, with his some kitchen knifes, while watching Dancing with the Stars.

And then you act like I'm splitting the atom, with my weighted guide's.

I guarantee it's not that difficult, and I'm not using expensive machinery.

And while I've done nothing but down played their effectiveness, in Retro, if indeed, they are an advantage, what would be the net result?

Better handling.

We wouldn't want any of that, and the resulting, cleaner and closer racing. Lol

[JimF]

Good lord!

[MSwiss]

Good lord?

Good lord is a whole thread by you testing premium/more expensive fish rubber.

http://slotblog.net/...premium +rubber

Why didn't that offend you?

[Samiam]

Metal in the guide blade. Will it stay intact? Will it cleave a hand open like a Ginsu knife? Will it damage the track if it becomes dislodged? 

 

And do we really need faster? Slippery slope my friends. 

 

Two words.....Wing Cars.

[MSwiss]

Easy on the drama, Sam.

Slot racing has always been chassis made from moving, exposed thin metal.

That's why we race with bodies on the car.

And when have you tested it and confirmed it's faster?

And if preventing faster is the plan, then all new chassis design should be banned.

[swodem]

What do the rules say?

 

If the guide flag is 'free', and the design fit within the rules, then there is no issue.

 

I'm with Mike on this one - so many people are so change-averse.

 

Its new stuff that makes this game exciting. Look back, if we hadn't made changes in the past....what crap would we still be racing now!? But more importantly....would anyone still be around racing it?

[tonyp]

No one even knows if this will work for retro. In my opinion I would think not. But I have no real opinion one way or another until I see one and try it.

The cost is small when you consider how long a guide lasts in most cases. It’s a one time cost per chassis, just like threaded axles which are now the norm and raised chassis costs for those that build their own or buy them. But no complaints from anyone there. Same with Ball bearing fronts.

If it doesn’t explode while running causing track or bodily damage what real harm is it?

If it makes the cars easier to drive for lots of racers that’s a good thing.




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[Samiam]

Retro is different than most classes of slot racing. Rules were written to frame and constrain the class within a particular time in history. Bodies are rejected for how they look. Particular chassis features and materials are banned. All to give the class a certain aura of slot racing days of yore.

 

If guides can be modified why not the motors? Gears?(Parma mod ok) And if the question is if it is not faster than why not.....well, if it is not faster than why bother? And will any and all guide flag mods be allowed? When bits start falling out, fouling the slot, de-slotting or destroying cars, what will the call be? 

 

Chassis building is the foundation of this entire genre of racing. It was not created to allow every possible development or modification in the quest for speed. The exact opposite was intended. The rules were written with full knowledge of the present and past state of other slot racing classes. And the intent was to avoid the pit falls.

 

Mission Statement

The purpose of this organization is:

• to promote a return to the spirit of slot car racing fun from the ‘60s, using scratchbuilt slot cars
• to define slot cars that reflect the appearance of actual racing cars from the above time period
• to provide a unified set of rules for regional, national, and international competition, and
• to create a rules structure that is cost-effective for the racer as well as the raceways

IRRA rule on guides:

 Guide:  A single guide flag is allowed, centered on the longitudinal axis of the chassis (i.e. no sideways “free float” or offset) and with a blade no larger than .086” (2.20mm) wide by 1.060” (27.18mm) long.

 

Should we add?: Commercially available and as produced by factory. No modifications.

And what about pinning? Yes or no? 

[MSwiss]

If it makes the cars easier to drive for lots of racers that’s a good thing.

And not launch and ruin their $135 chassis.

[MSwiss]

Should we add?: Commercially available and as produced by factory. No modifications.
And what about pinning? Yes or no?

Sam,
I missed where you were added to the IRRA® BOD.

Was there a secret meeting, that I was excluded from? Lol

You made up a while bunch of scenario's without ever having one in your hand, let alone trying one.

I don't have to make up scenario's.

We've run them at my raceway with zero issues, and with cars much faster than Retro cars.

PS- I remember you touting some revolutionary retro chassis design, you were privy to, and how it was going to obsolete all other designs.

I don't remember you having any concern about racers potentially needing to replace their expensive chassis with this new design, but you are worried about guys having to replace their $7 guide's, with $8.50 ones.

[Tom Eatherly]

Seems like a lot of bickering over some trivial things. One side says this, other side says that; it's all a bunch of bitching. Keep this up and some racers, new or old, are going to throw their arms up and say screw it. And walk away. This hobby needs positive banter, not a bunch of nit-picking. Some civil discussion goes a long way.

[Samiam]

Sam,
I missed where you were added to the IRRA® BOD.

Was there a secret meeting, that I was excluded from? Lol

Mike,

 

The "we" was metaphorically speaking. Not to be taken literally.

 

The rest of the post I stand by.   

[chaparrAL]

[gotboostedvr6]

This happens about never but I agree with Mike. These guides were a great idea and if done proper will not cause damage to the track surface.

You guys whining about them are just pissed you didn't think of it first.

[Jason Holmes]

I'm Glad I have some because I have a West Coast chassis I'm going to try at the RP that will need 5 grams of weight and this is 1.2 of it body 1.3 more so only 2.8 to add in lead Total 100.3 going to have fun

 

jason 

 

Thanks Mike keep thinking of ways to make thing's better and a dollar to keep the doors open

[usadar]

I am glad to see Mike has been trying to improve slot car parts including “pinned & Low CoG” Red Fox guides.
As long as developed parts are within the IRRA rules, I don’t see any problem.
If you don’t like to pay extra $1.50, you can stick to traditional guide flags.
With the traditional guide flags, there are many ways to improve handling of your chassis.
Like Political Correctness, an excessive pursuit of “equality” may ruin the fun of racing, I think.

[Upfront slot cars]

This is a pretty sad thread. All the bashing to one of the only guys willing to give us racers some of the best quality parts around and a fair price. What has happened to all types of racing these days ? Seems like the guys that put in the work get bashed becouse most racers are lazy and unwilling to try diff things to better a car or hit something new !

[Arne Saknussem]

Personal opinion:  weighted guides should be outlawed.

 

As to this rather illogical discussion, if one wishes to purchase an expensive front axle for the purpose supporting similarly expensive ball-bearing equipped front wheels, you have that right and privilege.  I fail to see any real-world performance advantage over mounting said wheels on fifteen cents worth of piano wire.  No obsolescence created, no objections heard.  The longer guides that have come into use recently are said to provide a performance advantage but I have not seen this in all cases of their use.  Should they be banned?  I don't know, but it seems never to have come up for discussion.

 

What I have seen, repeatedly, is the well known tendency for ingenious exploitation (and I mean that in a good way) of rules deficiencies.  If you don't want to see such "improvements" arrive from time to time, rules need to be better thought out.

 

I would also like to point out that the regular employment of argumentum ad hominem and false analogy on these forums merely confuses the discussion and brings on chaotic threads like this one.