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Regarding the Chicagoland low CG guide flag


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#51 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 13 May 2018 - 05:34 PM

"argumentum ad hominem and false analogy"

 

Wow  :shok: 


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#52 Pablo

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Posted 13 May 2018 - 06:16 PM

Personal opinion:  weighted guides should be outlawed.

 

I respect your opinion, Arne, but I do not agree.

 

Apart from that, how would you propose that be enforced?

Come to tech with the flag off the car, weigh it separately?

What if one manufacturer's flag weighs more due to the material used?

What if it's been pinned with tungsten?

What if one type of tongue has more material than another, therefore weighs more?

 

This thread is dumb and just gets dumb and dumber.

If IRRA® feels the new type flag doesn't fit with it's mission, then they will ban it.

But it would be hard to enforce. Why ban something that costs a few bucks more?

That is for the IRRA® BOD to decide. Let them do their job.

 

But to even start a conversation that implies the product should be banned, by a non-IRRA® BOD person, is wrong.

The maker of said product never implied it to be used in IRRA®.

 

This thread should have been deleted immediately, or at least moved into "General Slot Car Racing".

That's my opinion. :dirol:


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#53 MSwiss

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Posted 13 May 2018 - 07:04 PM

If you don't want to see such "improvements" arrive from time to time, rules need to be better thought out.
 

What a rude, Monday morning quarterbackish, comment.

"You guys need to do a better job predicting the future".

Yes, we should of predicted the latest Red Fox long guide.

No one can even agree now why they are faster, so what should of we legislated against?

First of all, after the first one came out, 10 or 11 years ago, I did suggest and draft up the dimension restrictions the IRRA® has on guide's, so they didn't get garishly long or thick.

Second, the Red Fox does not exceed those dimensions and the overall length of the blade is actually shorter than the old one.

It just looks longer, because the blade does not taper.

Back to the axle argument.

"It's just a convenience, not a speed item".

If all the prognosticators who have, without ever holding one, lest testing one, are right, that it is a must have item, it would be because it makes the car handle better/ more consistent.

Staying in the slot, and off the wall, seems like a convenience item to me.

I've heard of so many times, F1 cars launching at the end of the straight, and going into the bank wall.

"It went through there fine 30 times, but the 31st time, it launched".

If these can prevent that, it seems like the couple extra $$ for the convenience of not having to call Bud Bartos or Tony P, and order a new $135 chassis, will be money well spent.

IOW, these are not turbochargers, they are designed to make the car work better.
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Mike Swiss
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#54 JimF

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Posted 13 May 2018 - 07:34 PM

Dear Mr Swiss...................

 

Please consider the following quote from the IRRA rules before continuing to throw attacks at me for my testing and experimentation regimens, the fact that I build chassis as a hobby and that testing different things is fun for me. (hobby = fun..........right?) I occasionally post testing reports of my chassis or other products as PSAs. I do not try very hard to sell chassis as they are a hobby for me, not a business. Also, do not confuse my objection in principle over this unnecessary and unneeded development for Retro racing as anything related to personal agenda or gain for me.

 

"Crown gears must be commercially available and the only modifications allowed (other than making your own sleeve) are
sanding of the diameter of the gear and heating/burning it in for a smoother gear mesh. Disallowed modifications would include, but are
not limited to, lightening, drilling, reversing the gear on the hub, repositioning the set screw hole, changing or reconfiguring the hub, and/or
any other changes to the gear's size or appearance as compared to the stock production gear."

 

 

I'm unclear as to how this very specific ban on crown gear modification which is specifically outlawed and which you obviously support differs from a similar in concept, guide shoe shoe modification which you are defending so vehemently. Unless of course, the difference might be that someone stands to gain financially from the guide shoe modifications.

 

I am not attacking your right to develop something new. Rather, I am suggesting that various retro organizations might want to be careful with this and future technical developments for people to pursue. It is not an unreasonable conclusion that retro has been so successful nationwide because there is not as much "flavor of the week" stuff going on.


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#55 Tim Neja

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Posted 13 May 2018 - 07:42 PM

You can go public. LOL

 

I'm still waiting for some legitimate discussion for allowing an axle 6,600% (66 X) more expensive, but not a guide that's only 21% (1.21 X )  more.

Okay--two wrongs don't make a right! :)

Just because ONE mistake is made--doesn't open the door for MORE of them!! There were NO weighted guide flags in the 60's where retro derives it's roots from.  AND--it's supposed to be an affordable form of racing for everyone.  WHY allow that to change??  Performance gains can always be made legal---but SHOULD they?? 


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#56 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 13 May 2018 - 10:24 PM

Cut a RF guide in half and your lap time will not change.

Length had nothing to do with the improvement.
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#57 Jesse Gonzales

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Posted 13 May 2018 - 10:25 PM

Please don't outlaw Bartos Axles, Swiss Modified Guides, Chicagoland brackets etc. I liked the ideas and made some for my own use, I of course bought some of each to reward the guys that took the time to do the work. If anyone ever sees my handiwork I'll give credit to the originators. I can't wait to get to a track and race with you all after all that's why we are in this hobby, right?

 

Take care all y'all. Race every chance you get.

 

Jess Gonzales


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#58 MSwiss

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Posted 13 May 2018 - 11:48 PM

Dear Mr Swiss...................
 
Please consider the following quote from the IRRA rules before continuing to throw attacks at me for my testing and experimentation regimens, the fact that I build chassis as a hobby and that testing different things is fun for me. (hobby = fun..........right?) I occasionally post testing reports of my chassis or other products as PSAs. I do not try very hard to sell chassis as they are a hobby for me, not a business. Also, do not confuse my objection in principle over this unnecessary and unneeded development for Retro racing as anything related to personal agenda or gain for me.
 

 
I'm unclear as to how this very specific ban on crown gear modification which is specifically outlawed and which you obviously support differs from a similar in concept, guide shoe shoe modification which you are defending so vehemently. Unless of course, the difference might be that someone stands to gain financially from the guide shoe modifications.
 
I am not attacking your right to develop something new. Rather, I am suggesting that various retro organizations might want to be careful with this and future technical developments for people to pursue. It is not an unreasonable conclusion that retro has been so successful nationwide because there is not as much "flavor of the week" stuff going on.

There is nothing wrong with you trying many designs and extensively testing.

That's racing and slot racing.

You should be doing that.

The point is you look for the magic bullet chassis.

You might come up with it, and then it's "Jim, can you make me one?"

They go to you first, because you are the most likely to be able to duplicate it and it's success.

No different than when Willy Custer romps with a new Bartos design, and racers order the same thing, from Bud.

In the IRRA® there is nothing that stops a chassis builder from building something great, obsolete older designs, and sell some.

And there is nothing to stop someone from duplicating it, or having someone duplicate it for him.

Just like there isn't anything stopping someone to put brass in the blade, themselves.

Like I said before, you, Jay, and Bryan portray these low CG guide's like it's something only I can make, because I'm the only person on the planet with a nuclear guide splitter.

I make these myself, and anyone that has been to my raceway can attest other than my big table saw, I don't have any fancy machinery.

And even if I did, so what?

Past history shows a company having a monopoly on something, or it being expensive, doesn't get it banned.

Case in point, Kelly Retro's.

They are expensive and no one else has anything like it.

Good for Joe Reid sourcing the rubber and/or figuring out the unique treatment.

They have always been legal in the IRRA®.

As far as your gear comparison, be aware that just because it's an IRRA® rule, that doesn't mean I agree with it.

I'm only one of five votes.

The only concern I've ever had with modifying the gear was the version with the set screw in the the middle of it, like I already posted a pic of.

IMO, that required expensive machinery.

Way more expensive than what I use to make the guides.

Anyone that can afford to competitively Retro race, and has a modicum of ambition, can make these guide's themselves.

PS-I do it with less $$$ in equipment, than you use to make chassis.
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Mike Swiss
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
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#59 usadar

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 01:11 AM

Too much restriction would make retro racing boring to me.
I am quite satisfied with the present IRRA rules.
Mikes Lo CoG Red Fox guldes are within the IRRA guide spec.
I am buying Pinned Red Fox guides from Mike, while some of our racers in Tokyo do it by themselves without using expensive machinaries. Probably Kamo or some other guys would do it as they have been pinning the guide. Tebu will be still hard to beat even if he doesnt use the Lo CoG guide flags.
Good Racing,
Haruki
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#60 Samiam

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 04:46 AM

Retro is supposed to be about scratch building chassis, not scratch building guide shoes.

 

Just because something can be done doesn't mean it should.

 

Let's wait for the BoD's other four members to make a decision.  


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#61 Noose

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 07:20 AM

Sam, with all due respect you ran in two events all year in Retro East.  I never see your name at the weekly races at Port Jeff either.  According to my records every race you entered had a frame built by someone else.  So at the end of the day I would say you need to earn the right to comment so lavishly on what retro racing should do and not do.

 

I see no advantage to this guide and do not plan on buying them anyway. It does not guarantee there would not be any future broken guides. Why even the pinned ones still break; maybe not at the post but in other places.  

 

While I can afford the new guide I have plenty of the pinned and graphite ones and see no need to spend more money on these that will do nothing for me and my program.  If others choose too then fine.


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#62 Samiam

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 07:32 AM

Sam, with all due respect you ran in two events all year in Retro East.  I never see your name at the weekly races at Port Jeff either.  According to my records every race you entered had a frame built by someone else.  So at the end of the day I would say you need to earn the right to comment so lavishly on what retro racing should do and not do.

 

I see no advantage to this guide and do not plan on buying them anyway. It does not guarantee there would not be any future broken guides. Why even the pinned ones still break; maybe not at the post but in other places.  

 

While I can afford the new guide I have plenty of the pinned and graphite ones and see no need to spend more money on these that will do nothing for me and my program.  If others choose too then fine.

Read this Joe: 

 

 

Mission Statement

The purpose of this organization is:

  • to promote a return to the spirit of slot car racing fun from the ‘60s, using scratchbuilt slot cars
  • to define slot cars that reflect the appearance of actual racing cars from the above time period
  • to provide a unified set of rules for regional, national, and international competition, and
  • to create a rules structure that is cost-effective for the racer as well as the raceways

That is where I got my guidance for my so called lavish opinion. It has been stated many times by you and many other racers that Retro is more about chassis building and not parts performance.  As far as how many races I go to , what the hell does that got to do with anything?

 

I guess the pattern here is: If you don't like the message, attack the messenger.

 

Later, much. 


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#63 kvanpelt

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 10:27 AM

LMAO! 

 

Hey Mike, maybe some would be OK with this guide if JK Tim came up with it and they could mail order it, cutting out the raceways!


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#64 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 11:48 AM

    At BPR on Saturday I had a chance to talk with some of the SCRRA racers concerning the issue of weighted guides and their use in Retro racing.  Some hadn't heard about it and some had mixed opinions but most basically felt that it was probably something that was not needed in Retro Racing and this is my opinion also.

 

   Without going into a long list of pros and cons and rights and wrongs and arguments about this, I simply feel that all things considered, this particular modification is unnecessary in Retro.  I certainly recognize and applaud all of Mike's past and present support of Retro with all of his innovative parts and modifications...... I just don't know if Retro needs this latest one........

 

  The SCRRA will continue to get racers opinions on this and the weighted guides will certainly be legal for a while in all off the monthly races but I'm telling people not to buy or modify a lot of them as they may not be legal at the Summer Western Classic in July.   :)


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#65 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 12:06 PM

How would you feel if the manufacturer cast the weights in the guide mold?
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#66 Mark Wampler

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 12:23 PM

I wanted to weigh in on the conversation we had on the tech table at Saturday's Retro  race at Buena Park.  I appreciate Bryan opening up the discussion to racers.
First of all what amount of testing show a clear advantage of using this modification?  I get the perception that low center weight on the guide has an advantage.
What concerns me is what happens in a bad wreck with all that weight at the bottom?   My idea is to have the lightest possible  guide that responds quickly to tracking as opposed to a sluggish, heavy guide, but that's my opinion. 
I think at this early stage without extensive testing, I don't see a rush to legalize this.
Finally,  there is the unfounded perception that racers  are at a disadvantage if they don't have a weighted guide.   FWIW


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#67 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 03:10 PM

How would you feel if the manufacturer cast the weights in the guide mold?

 

 David,

     That is certainly something that poses a bit of a dilemma........especially for me as years ago I was the one using the same argument in favor of allowing racers the freedom to lighten the gears as they wanted!   As Mike rightly points out, there is really no difference between the 2 as legitimate manufacturers can easily produce lighter gears or mold in weights to make heavier guides.  So why allow one and disallow the other especially since the SCRRA has always been in favor of basically keeping the rules to a minimum???

 

     I suppose my thinking and the difference here is that the lightening of gears was something that slot racers have been doing for decades and the weighted guide concept is something that is completely new.... That and the fact that the original idea of Retro was to generally limit or slow down some of these innovations in the first place........More work or more cost and when everyone has it no real advantage to anyone so what's the point?........Just my opinion, neither right or wrong as much of this stuff is so very subjective and 10 slot racers will have 11 different opinions!  :laugh2:

 

    I guess a simple rule governing guides could be written to the effect that, "Guides must be made entirely of plastic with the exception of a straight metal rod that acts as a reinforcement pin for the post".  When "Heavy Plastic" come out next month, we'll just have to deal with it and I do see a real clear distinction between Mike's pinned guides being a very positive thing and the weighted guides being something unnecessary in Retro.

 

   Please understand that this is only the opinion of the SCRRA and we have no idea of how other racing groups feel nor are we encouraging or telling anyone what to do.  We can only call 'em as we see 'em and hopefully it will be in the best interests of the SCRRA racers!   :)


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#68 boxerdog

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 05:47 PM

Brass guide nuts have been around forever and all kinds of lead and brass weights.. Granted they are mounted higher in the car, but I am kinda surprised at the hair-splitting on this topic. Racers will always be racers, I think, and I think innovation keeps things interesting. I really don't have a dog in this one, just an observer.

 

And really smart controllers are the next frontier anyway, and unless you are using Parma Turbos, you can see what's happening there already. 

 

Just my .02, not pickin' on anyone!


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#69 Mark Wampler

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 06:19 PM

We (Foster's) had a short discussion about those "Really" smart controllers.  The ones that can be programmed on the fly per lane, so that once entered in, the controller drives the car by itself. 


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#70 gc4895

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 06:56 PM

Why all the urgency to regulate? Why not wait a couple of years or racing seasons and lets see what pans out. If these guides are better, time will tell. If other innovations are more powerful, those may become a standard. Innovation can come in many forms and from many directions. You never know. In 2 years there might be a limit established defining stripped guide weight that everyone then nods and says oh, thats a good idea. In the mean time, why not race and see what happens. As always, YMMV.
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#71 Noose

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 07:06 PM

FWIW, the IRRA BoD voted approval of the guide -3 to 1. Of course Swiss could not vote.
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#72 Phil Hackett

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 07:45 PM

Uhmmmm..... as previously posted in another thread, I made a weighted guide flag back in the late 80s or early 90s. Instead of brass I used tungsten and that flag was used in G27 and G7 wings cars and **at that time** it made little difference. It certainly didn't turn my cars into suddenly faster than Superman fast.

 

It seems to me that inlines shouldn't have lots of forward weight. I fail to see how these weighted flags will make things "obsolete" when the performance advantage hasn't been proven or disproven.

 

And, yes, $1200 controllers (if they're real) is a ridiculous (in my opinion) price to pay for a controller. Maybe IRRA should require 1969 resistor controllers with only micro-switches as the only add-on. Do it before someone buys one ($1200 controller) and makes a perception of an advantage over the other racers :dash2:.

 

Does Parma still make the Sebring controller with the metal trigger?.... Memories of blisters, wet rags, melting handles and smoke pouring out of the handles come rushing back.


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#73 Dallas Racer

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 08:15 PM

If this had been proposed by someone other than Mike, who is buds with all the right people, on the BOD, a paying advertiser and a moderator on this forum, this guide flag would never be approved by the IRRA. Never even considered. As it is it's a slam dunk for approval.

 

And if anyone else attacked fellow forum members like Mike routinely does, they would be banned. Years ago I almost got kicked off for much tamer behavior than Mike's.


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#74 Noose

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 08:25 PM

Sorry, your reasoning is wrong on my part. I’ve told Mike where to go plenty of times. Lol

Joe "Noose" Neumeister
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#75 Jason Holmes

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 08:31 PM

So can we close this Asinine Thread now please

 

jason







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