3573 replies to this topic

[Slotgeezer]

Very nicely done, John....

I was lucky enough to visit w/ Mike Reedy of Associated RC fame, long before he was involved in RC motors... He ran Checkered Flag Raceway in Westminster, CA & they had a home-built mirrior-image 'copy' of a 155' King track, that was one of the 1st tracks in SoCal to have battery power, back in the late-60's... Dave Grant from Team Lenz won many races there, during the late 60's...

Mike once handed me an armature, & told me "count the number of wires on the comm tabs"...



WOW! ... 3 wires, going into & out-of each tab!

"Triple-30 wind... pity we don't have magnets capable of getting some decent brakes!"

Mike went on to work on RC stuff w/ Hustings at Associated, as electric 1/10th scale became popular... But, I always remembered that triple-30 !!

Take care, John...


Jeff Easterly

[Champion 507]

John,

Hi remember me? I've been watchin' and readin', just ain't had any time to be doin' lately.

Let's see... triple #29...that equates to about #23 single. Yup, ought to make a dentist drill sound like a bass tuba.

Good stuff, dude. Wish I could see and hear it zing up.

Sure hope my Duralco doesn't set up from lack of use.

[havlicek]

Hi Guys and thanks for loooking. Doubles (and now triples) are funny things. They seem to wind like crazy but stay relatively "cooler" than "equivalent" bigger wire singles. I guess the extra difficulty in winding them (especially triples) is why they don't seem to be used anymore...unless I just haven't seen them. Aside from the hassles of trying to keep things neat at each pole, the first/last pole presents an extra difficulty because of the number of conductors (6!) passing over the com tab. It took a few tries to come up with a way to handle that and then I was really concerned I might fry the whole thing when welding the tabs...but it all worked out OK. Anyway, I know that racers used multiple winds back in the 60's and I imagine into the early 70's (maybe someone can give a little background on when these things lost favor and why), it seems clear why they were successful back then, at least for a while anyway.

-john

[Champion 507]

I've heard multi-winds pick up rpm's but lose torque compared to equivalent single wire winds. Don't know why. Maybe someone with knowledge of the subject will chime in. I think they're cool, but once inside the can, it's hard to tell that it's a multi-wind.

[HarV Wallbanger III]

John I was told by Big Jim that they cost more time to wind and always had more balance issues....

[Prof. Fate]

Hi

How much babble do you want?

There were several reasons we did doubles and triples for a short while. The thinking was this way. In the day the common way to wind was to select a wire, and pile on all the turns you could! Only a few of us were sitting with the books first and selecting a wind by characteristics (such as 6'of 32 is one ohm for 1/32 racing on...".

The thinking was that a double 32 would allow a neater wind with MORE TURNS than a single 29 because of more efficient packing of the wire and better filling of the gaps. Similar thought to useing "flat" wire.

It was also thought that neater, more fill would run cooler and have better brakes.

The second big reason was to have "mid" winds. Rather than, given the power available on the track, a 29 might be too hot.......slightly, for the power pack, and everyone running 30s...so using two different wire sizes and getting a 29.5 or some other "tween".

As far as I know, there was no "first" or "beginning" to this. Most of the motor builders in the early 60s had some electronics background and already knew this stuff.

Why did it go away? Mostly the rules changed. Once upon a time it was "run whatcha' brung". And part of that was building the best motor you could think of. With the fall of the FAD, rules got strict to "save" slot cars by using "spec motor" rules such as G.12, 15, 20 and so on. Most people only bought arms, and the manufacturers didn't have a lot of call for a "tween" wind and doubles were more expensive for no real advantage.

Fate

[havlicek]

I've heard multi-winds pick up rpm's but lose torque compared to equivalent single wire winds.

They may favor rpms over torque somewhat Doug, but I haven't seen anything that makes me believe it's to the point of a disadvantage, so I don't think that's the answer. Even if it is so, it's no more than could easily be accomodated by a slight gear ratio change.

John I was told by Big Jim that they cost more time to wind and always had more balance issues....

Hi Barney. I can easily believe they cost more...especially triples On the balance thing, I would never doubt Big Jim as he had a level of expertise I will never achieve, but I just haven't seen any issues there at all. If anything, they seem to be "very" balanced right off the bat.

Hi Rocky,

Yes, I've often heard it said that doubles were an easy way to get more wire on an arm and yes...I DO remember the time when everyone struggled just to cram as much wire on an arm as they could I've also heard it said right here by (I think) Tony P that getting to the equivalent of a half-gauge wind was helpful. Of course, we can buy half gauges today so I assume they just weren't available back then.

Why did it go away? Mostly the rules changed. Once upon a time it was "run whatcha' brung". And part of that was building the best motor you could think of. With the fall of the FAD, rules got strict to "save" slot cars by using "spec motor" rules such as G.12, 15, 20 and so on. Most people only bought arms, and the manufacturers didn't have a lot of call for a "tween" wind and doubles were more expensive for no real advantage.

Well, that explains why custom winds went away in general and why spec motors came to be but not specifically multis.

I don't want to seem obtuse, but I still have to believe that:

1)As Barney said Big Jim told him, multis are just expensive and a pain in the keister. I don't even know if machine-winding lends itself to this stuff (I would guess there's a way to do this on machines?)...but maybe someone can say for sure???

2)I "think" multis do have at least some advantage and are not functionally the same as their larger gauge single wind equivalents. They seem to run significantly less warm while still producing very good RPMs and torque, and in motors where heat is a real issue, that alone could be a very good thing.

I realize I'm coming to this kind of late since "the party ended" decades ago , but I'm just calling it the way it seems to me.

-john

[Horsepower]

Triple wind!.................

[Phil Irvin]

JOHN,
You worked your buns off on a triple wind.
There,late 68, was a track that I ran on that was power pack, not battery . With a full load of 26-27 guage motors. There wasn't enough amps to go around . NO one could come close to qualifing times with 8 lanes full . I had heard that THORP used a double 29 at a powerpack race & cleaned up. I had a MURA arm that had thrown a wind SOOO with a small roll of Beldon wire. I wound a double 29. I had little balancing to do on it and it SOUNDED EVIL ....I usually had to race my way into the main and won more than my fair share. They went battery and the Double 29 went into the pile...never to be seen again ....

OLPHRT
PHIL I.

[havlicek]

They went battery and the Double 29 went into the pile...never to be seen again ....

...well Phil, you shoulda done a double 28 then! These things are fidgety to get done, but they're not THAT bad (except for the first/last com tab that is). Maybe a quad #31 next???...just kidding

-john

[Kim Lander]

John,
On the half guage idea...me and a few others here in the early days would not only wind multiples but did it with two different guage wires (for the half guage effect) worked pretty good some increase in both torque and RPM....my best results were 28 or 29 with 32....ran cool as a cucumber...but fast.....Kim

[havlicek]

Hi Kim,

Yes, that seems to have been the goal for some... to achieve half-gauge sizes. I have seen a good amount of old doubles here (no triples yet) and many are mixed gauge winds. Some are blown, but many have survivied in good shape. The 28/29 is one of the ones I see most often, but I also have seen some 27/28...a "stout" wind for sure! Of the multiple winds that I've seen of all kinds, a 27/27 is about the hottest, at least that I've seen in person. I imagine that some people may have experimented with 26 doubles or maybe 26/27 doubles, but those would probably be a little extreme.

-john

[Prof. Fate]

Hi

In the early 70s in Ogden Utah(Lenore's home town), I was making road trips to their big money races and mopping up because I wound TO their crummy pack. The locals accused me of being able to "broadcast power".

That story STILL cracks up the locals.

Anyway, in the 60s, I don't know anyone who bought wire other than in a local electronics shop. This was before Rat Shak became common. Most had Beldon magnet wire in full sizes. I don't remember seeing half sizes in shops.

Now, the only real choice is mail order.

Fate

[DirtyHairy]

Wow can u say awesome!!!!!! My birthday was yesterday and beleive it or not the OLDMAN gave me one of the motors you did for him John,,,,,im not a big motor guru but i beleive it is a purple can mabuchi......im almost too tempted just to look at it instead of running it.......NOT.....awesome motor work man......like the OLDMAN says you are the motor man!!!!! Keep up the good ,,,,,no ,,,,,awesome work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[havlicek]

Wow can u say awesome!!!!!! My birthday was yesterday and beleive it or not the OLDMAN gave me one of the motors you did for him John,,,,,im not a big motor guru but i beleive it is a purple can mabuchi......im almost too tempted just to look at it instead of running it.......NOT.....awesome motor work man......like the OLDMAN says you are the motor man!!!!! Keep up the good ,,,,,no ,,,,,awesome work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi Justin,

Happy Birthday! I have to admit I kinda had an idea Frank was going to do something like that This last batch of motors were done in varying flavors of spicyness, so I don't recalll how zippy the purple one was...but I'm stoked you like it, and thanks for the (undeserved) props

-john

[BoomerDog]

Hey, John.....long time, no comment from me! lol I've been in "get ready to rewind" mode. I'll have some samples to post shortly....I'm thinking a week or so. I'm looking forward to your critique and assistance. I can only hope as I start that the arms come in somewhere around the 30% margin of your awesome work. I have pictures coming to show a couple of scratchbuilt chassis with your motors in them. This whole string has been both inspirational and educational and I'm glad to have you moderating the comments. Great, great stuff from a great guy.

Stay tuned!

[Krash]

Well I haven't given up but I also haven't had much success with the double winds, I keep burning up the comms and/or endbells?
I am trying 35 turns of 30G wire, this was a Parma 16D rewind attempt.
Also trying some of the furnace cement John recommended.










Kelly

[Kim Lander]

Dirty Harry (Justin),

DO NOT JUST LOOK at Johns motors....they are sight to behold I must say... but the real cream is in putting them on the track.....and watching others look in awe....so much fun..enjoy them the way they are intended.....ON THE TRACK...............Kim

[BoomerDog]

You make a great point, Kim. I have done that with one of John's motors......it brought head turning to new heights! LOL

[havlicek]

Hey, John.....long time, no comment from me! lol I've been in "get ready to rewind" mode. I'll have some samples to post shortly....I'm thinking a week or so. I'm looking forward to your critique and assistance.

Hi Steve,

Great! Wind 'em up and let's get going I'm always glad to help if I can.

Well I haven't given up but I also haven't had much success with the double winds, I keep burning up the comms and/or endbells?
I am trying 35 turns of 30G wire, this was a Parma 16D rewind attempt.
Also trying some of the furnace cement John recommended.

Hi Kelley,

Your double sure looks nice so I wouldn't get too frustrated. Getting the wire on there that way is not an easy thing to do. I think it really is key to have a small inexpensive multimeter that can do tenths of an ohm fairly reliably to check the arms after winding but before epoxying and finishing. I always check mine at that point and even though I had become over-the-top anal about insulating the stack...I still had the occasional short. That hasn't happened since I've started with the furnace cement...even with lighter gauge wire, but I will still check every arm with the meter. I can go look at the model number of mine later. It was inexpensive and does a pretty good job of reading all the way down to .1 ohm.

-john

[havlicek]

I did another triple (I'm still waiting to hit a homerun ) because trying to get these things neat is difficult, so I wanted the practice. I also wanted to tweak the wind to get it to .2 ohm. Since "one turn" either way is actually adding or subtracting three turns, it's more significant how many turns are on there than a single 29. I figure even the patterns are much more significant since the total length of wire per pole could be off more for the same reason. I tried to keep the coils as compact and neat as I could, but I don't think I can do much better (maybe with more practice???). Anyway, the wind is pretty much there and I do see an improvement over my first triple. Even though I use arms that I put aside as "seconds" for these kinds of experiments, the arm sounds impressive so I'm happy with the result.



-john

[Phil Irvin]

..............

DAMN YOU...I couldn't hold a candle next to you! ....I got enough irons in the fire.....After I get resettled and my 'garage' set up. I got some 'new' old tracks to get reaquanted with before I get into rewinding again. I got to 'defend' myself from all those 'nasty' racers in FLORIDA.... Gotta put then in their places.. OOO...How much fun we shall have...

OLPHRT
PHIL I.

[Slotgeezer]

Another fine looking armature, John... Very nicely done...
W/ the improved magnets that we have now, I would think that these would run great, & still have 'some' brakes, especially if these's a bunch of wire packed-on each pole... The weight, & the effect of dynamic braking, working together...
Take care!


Jeff Easterly

[havlicek]

Hi Phil,

Aw go on...anyone can do what I do. The beauty of motor building and winding is that it takes relatively few tools (mostly stuff that slot car people already have anyway) and techniques. Practice and patience are the main things needed other than a source for arms, and those can be recycled with some effort.

Hi Jeff,

Multiple winds are an interesting thing that seem to have become overlooked over the years. I think the move towards inexpensive and/or spec motors has pushed them aside when for some applications they seem to offer advantages. They obviously aren't "better" for the high end cobalt stuff where cost isn't a factor, or they would still be used. I think they have a place for sure with vintage motors and maybe some power situations. Who knows, they might even be competitive in other cases but their cost and complexity has ruled them out. Double winds are relatively easy to do and they just plain work. Triples are more of a PITA and they might be too much for some of the vintage stuff. The later Muras and Champions may or may not benefit in real terms from multiples since they can take the heat of the big wire arms better. If there were race programs for those motors, the efficiency of multiples might make them a competitive choice against single big wire winds??? A 2 hole Mura with a 25S is an impressive and brutish beast, but there's always the muscle versus longevity thing to figure out. I believe I've seen Philippe say here on the blog that he specifically chose 25 singles when other guys were running #24 arms for that reason. Looking at these things now and "rediscovering" them, they're all fun and interesting.

-john

[Prof. Fate]

Hi

to use cliches: "Just do it".
Frankly, I have always thought it fun to build the bits in my car as opposed to buying. Most programs don't allow, which is why my interest in formal racing is limited!

Another favorite aphorism: "it isn't our strengths that enable us, it is our doubts that cripple us" (Frankowski). With slot cars, like what is the worse that can happen?

Fate