3573 replies to this topic

[havlicek]

John, I don't know if PdL can charge you for extra bandwidth. After all, he doesn't really know how wide your band is to begin with. Besides, he'll just probably want some free motors or motorwork instead.

Philippe has my number...anytime Doug.

Ernie, glad it got there safe. Enjoy my friend!

-john

[Alchemist]

Hi John,

I enjoy all your motors dear buddy!!!

I searched but could not find an answer to my question. So, I pose a question to you and the other "rewinder brethren" please.

I don't understand the effects of "amp draw' when you guys put your rewound motors on the machine to check amp draw. Can you determine the amp draw from the type of wire you use on a rewind? Or is it a "hit and miss" estimation. For example, if you take two similar arms and rewind with the same size wire and turns, I presume the amp draw should be the same? Can magnet power affect amp draw?

What is affected by the amp draw - the performance of the motor, is the power source affected? Is it better for performance to have the motor pull more amps or not?

Thank you for your time.

Ernie

[havlicek]

Hi Ernie,

Basically, the larger diameter the wire the more current can flow through it. Also, the less resistance, the more current will flow...so say you're running at a track that has a total of 30 amps available, you can put a low current draw motor on that track and it won't draw any more current than it would on a track that had 10 amps available.

What is affected by the amp draw - the performance of the motor, is the power source affected?

A motor that draws more current (and isn't malfunctioning) will have more power than a lower current draw motor. The equation goes ...volts x amps = watts (power). Since the voltage can be considered a constant...a motor that draws more current at a particular voltage will produce more power.

-john

[Prof. Fate]

Hi

And to expand, this is where the plastic car guys miss the boat with their obsession with "rpm rating". We have even had a couple threads here talking about RPM. What matters is watts of power. Pretty simple, really.

The bad news, John is too good at this and consideres it Malfunctioning, tiny things like slightly rough bushings or bearings, slight mis alignments and so on can cause current draw to go up with out more power output. Usually this is reflected as HEAT which will kill the motor.

AND within limits, better magnets produce a more efficient motor meaning less current usage for power output. Thus, cobalts are better than 1964 period ceramic magnets in this regard with the SAME wind. The old motor will rev higher, draw more current, run hotter for much less power than the same set up with better magnets.

My question is, how many people reading all this have been inspired to actually BUILD motors?

Fate

[idare2bdul]

Rocky said,"My question is, how many people reading all this have been inspired to actually BUILD motors?"

Me.

I've built motors in the past but of late i've become more interested again. In Drag Racing we have discovered an inexpensive source for Neo magnets in 2 different strengths and thickness. These are getting stuffed into Hawk cans and into shortened C cans and various armature combination's are being tried.

Unlike John I stuff my motors with arms made by other guys.

Foamy is building a very nasty shortened C can.

[havlicek]

My question is, how many people reading all this have been inspired to actually BUILD motors?

Lots of people build motors Rocky...just look at Mike's post. Speaking of Mike's post:

In Drag Racing we have discovered an inexpensive source for Neo magnets in 2 different strengths and thickness.

OK I'll bite...what's the source?

-john

[Duffy]

My question is, how many people reading all this have been inspired to actually BUILD motors?

Lots of people build motors Rocky...just look at Mike's post.

Hmm, I'd taken Rocky's question as literal and not necessarily snarky...

Well, I also've been fooling around with motors, trying a thing or two at times but mostly doin' homework and collecting bags of motor bits & tools; and yes, this thread is both inspiring and useful.

But it's easy to get off track, and easy to misdirect: just like a recent question as to the number of short/ medium/ longtime racers that are frequenting tracks turned into a thread of individuals' personal histories, it's similarly risky to tell a guy looking for nuts&bolts info (like Alchemist, who asked recently) to rake through a hundred pages of boutique shots and attaboys to get at the hard data and valuable discussions & techniques that are certainly in there, if you have stamina to look and erudition to recognize what you need.

Now I think on it, you wound an arm in pictures specifically at Ernie's request some months ago, right? In its own thread; now forgotten, and what's the good of that? There's also a 36D rebuild, I believe, on Steve O'Keefe's site. The Simco pamphlet, with all the basics, is posted close to the beginning of this thread. Lots of good info for someone doing his homework, if someone digs deep enough.

Maybe what's needed is a dedicated, pinned, repository for specific hard-data: links, scans of good articles &c. Might be less daunting for some of us. Y'think? I've collected a few things in one folder that might serve well as a start. Should we try & set it up?

Duffy

[Robert V.]

I was inspired a few months back by this thread to do some rewinding and i will be finishing a Parma 16d in a few days, i will keep winding until my supplies run out and that won't happen for a long time as i have just been given 3 burnt out motors at last nights hard body race.

[Champion 507]

Robert, isn't FREE great? A lot of guys are intimidated by doing motor work or just don't care to do it. They would rather go buy another China special and go back racing. I fully understand some racing classes nowadays don't allow for you to go into a motor and correct the issues. But one class pretty much lends itself to motor tinkering and that's bracket drag racing. One guy even had me wind a Deathstar to go slower. They come stock with 70t #30 and I rewound it with 90t #32. He wasn't looking for speed, he was looking for consistancy and not having to use much or any glue at the starting line. He was very pleased with what I built.

[Robert V.]

Yep Doug free is awsome got to love it, i like that rewinding for less power don't often see that, i think here at Slot-A Lot they will be starting a no glue class most likely using sealed Death star motors so can't mess with that but there are many other classes that allow for all kinds of tuning who knows i may be able to do a few motors to play with.

[havlicek]

Hmm, I'd taken Rocky's question as literal and not necessarily snarky...

umm...me too!? I thought my answer was straightforward.

Well, I also've been fooling around with motors, trying a thing or two at times but mostly doin' homework and collecting bags of motor bits & tools; and yes, this thread is both inspiring and useful.
But it's easy to get off track, and easy to misdirect: just like a recent question as to the number of short/ medium/ longtime racers that are frequenting tracks turned into a thread of individuals' personal histories, it's similarly risky to tell a guy looking for nuts&bolts info (like Alchemist, who asked recently) to rake through a hundred pages of boutique shots and attaboys to get at the hard data and valuable discussions & techniques that are certainly in there, if you have stamina to look and erudition to recognize what you need.

Now I think on it, you wound an arm in pictures specifically at Ernie's request some months ago, right? In its own thread; now forgotten, and what's the good of that? There's also a 36D rebuild, I believe, on Steve O'Keefe's site. The Simco pamphlet, with all the basics, is posted close to the beginning of this thread. Lots of good info for someone doing his homework, if someone digs deep enough.

Maybe what's needed is a dedicated, pinned, repository for specific hard-data: links, scans of good articles &c. Might be less daunting for some of us. Y'think? I've collected a few things in one folder that might serve well as a start. Should we try & set it up?

Duffy

I agree, although questions asked seem to be answered pretty pronto. In any case, it would make it far easier to get whatever info people are looking for. I wish someone had done that a long time ago. I'm still waiting to find out about those inexpensive neo magnets in different sizes and strengths and that was only a few posts ago!

-john

[Duffy]

umm...me too!? I thought my answer was straightforward.

Oh, hey, it prob'ly was; but I read it the Duffy way! So often we think we're writing what we mean / so often we think we're reading what we mean...

In any case, [a dedicated motor shop library] would make it far easier to get whatever info people are looking for. I wish someone had done that a long time ago.

Questions answered pronto (and you DO) are half of what a guy trying to find his way through this tangled garden needs, since half the time he won't realize that a particular answer addresses something he'll use. It's part of the "When the student is ready..." thing: the more opportunities we provide for that head-slap moment, the more heads will likely be slapped.
I may just get busy. I'll get with Cheater and strategize a little about formatting this in a useful way.

Duffy

[Alchemist]

Hi John,

Thank you for your explanation.

As I had mentioned earlier, I did as thorough a search as I could - (I read every single search result) - and was not able to find the answer that Sir John just provided me. I make an effort to search prior to asking so I am not being redundant. If anyone feels that an inquiry I've made has already been answered, I hope they will kindly direct me to where I can obtain the answer.

Pardon my inquiry!!

Ernie

p.s. I have been inspired by this thread and have started taking apart a couple of old motors for rewinding. I've yet to get started on a motor rewind but at least I've started - LOL!!

[Duffy]

Uh-oh. Ernie, my comments weren't meant to call you down: you're asking about things that interest you and that is a good thing. Rather, I'm looking at the heaps of info that's grown naturally on this 'Blog that we now face sifting through, and the possibilities offered by a specific links & docs site that might give our sifters a little break now and then.

Duf

[havlicek]

Hi John,

Thank you for your explanation.

As I had mentioned earlier, I did as thorough a search as I could - (I read every single search result) - and was not able to find the answer that Sir John just provided me. I make an effort to search prior to asking so I am not being redundant. If anyone feels that an inquiry I've made has already been answered, I hope they will kindly direct me to where I can obtain the answer.

Pardon my inquiry!!

Ernie

p.s. I have been inspired by this thread and have started taking apart a couple of old motors for rewinding. I've yet to get started on a motor rewind but at least I've started - LOL!!

Hi Ernie...there's NEVER a reason not to ask. Sometimes you might get a "wise-guy" answer from someone who really doesn't know the answer, but will tell you to "do a search" (don't you just love that stuff...NOT!. Sometimes you might get the wrong answer too...but you should be able to get some sort of info. After all, the main purpose of a place like this is to share information. If that's not happening...then neither is this place!

More on your question. The real "physics" stuff about motors from general field theorey to even the simple physics of electricity is way beyond my level of knowledge or expertise (I'm a carpenter). I was a science major in college, but what I remember is pretty sketchy at best. Still, if you look at two power drills and see a rating for amps (something like 4 or 5 amps @ 110VAC)...the one with the higher amp-rating will be more powerful. Again, the voltage can be considered a constant (in this case, 110V)...so a 5 amp drill will produce 550 watts (or "power"...V x A = W), a 3 amp drill will produce 330 watts.

-john

[Victor Poulin]

I do have to agree with Erine that it's tuff to sift through, and sort out all the different pages of info, to find the specific info one is searching for. Its because there's so much info in this thread. That's a good thing !! but can be very frustrating . I think Duffs Idea is a good one if he can work it out. Maybe break it down into different sections to narrow the search?

Vic

[Alchemist]

Hi Duffy!

I took no offense please. My comment was merely to explain my position and that was all I wanted to do. I do appreciate your concern. It can be challenging to know the "tone" of the message when reading words on a screen - unless of course someone is blatantly "throwing profanity" in the wind - LOL!!!

I really like your idea about grouping certain information that would be readily accessible. For myself, most of the time, I do not mind having to read thru the many pages because there is usually information that I hadn't remember coming across when I was searching for something else.

John, thank you for sharing the information!!

Thank you.

Ernie

[Prof. Fate]

Hi

I wasn't being snarky but rather feeling lonely! Just a few days ago in conversation with old friends led to the comment. That is, When we met in the 60s, we teamed up for a bucks race and I ended up custom building state of the art for the time great motors for them. So, in the recent conversation they allowed as how I have always been a mystery to them. They asked a modern motor question, got a lecture.

"Look I just wanted to go race, which motor do I buy"?

I look forward to this thread just because I don't feel like the FREEK.

This is why the call to find out "who the best driver is" doesn't really matter to me. I saw John Cukrus drive back in the 60s and knew I wasn't the best. Once we all know who "the best" is, what is left? For me, bench time with the bits are relaxing, putting it on the track to demonstrate I got it right is the issue. My old friends from the 60s have been and ARE better than I am as a driver!

Fate

[Victor Poulin]

Rocky, Your singing my song lol. I've never been a good driver but its never stoped me from doing a hobby that I love !! There are so many more aspects to slot cars than just driving them.
Some people are better drivers, some are better chassis builders, some motors, ect. Racing/driving is only part of it. You see, I'm one of these guys that will let off rather than cause a wreck, because it doesn't matter to me where I finish. I'm there to have a good time with good friends, and that's what matters to me.

Vic

[Robert V.]

This will be the finish post for this motor, here is the arm being cut on my machine than the final pic of the finished motor i know it doesn't look like much as it's a Parma can but it's the fastest 16d i have ever owned runs pretty cool and smooth and after i cut the comm and broke in the motor brushes the amp draw went down to almost 1 1/2 should hold up well under load as i ran it for about 20 seconds at 15 volts no load. Ok let me try the pics one more time.

[havlicek]

Hey Robert...I can't see the picture!

Rocky,

Some folks might see you as something of a PITA because of how you go on about rewinding and building motors...not me

-john

[havlicek]

I'm just finishing-up my next "Walnut" and, using some of the tricks I've learned lately, I have to say that winding the arm was much easier than how it went last time I did one of these little guys. Com is from Bill Bugenis, and I'm getting the hang of brazing these coms with their straight (instead of hooked) com tabs. Of course, soldering them for milder winds would be easy and these coms are really really nice! Because this motor is so teensy-weensy (at least compared to a modern C-can, I also cut the com way shorter. I forget, but I think the stack is around .300".




The setup came from a bunch of assorted neat stuff the Barney had sent (thanks again Barney!). I cut down some C-can hardware, drilled it out a little and radiused the inside of the brush hoods to clear the com and replaced the leadwire tabs with some off an old D-motor. I think it came out pretty slick. I also cut out the top and bottom of the can (it had thin louvres or horizontal slots) and installed a set of magnets from a S7 mini motor.



I still have to shorten a set of brushes a little so they don't stick out of the hoods so far they interfere with the spings, but the arm tests out and the whole setup is nice and tight with the arm nicely centered in the field. It should be a real runner

-john

[Victor Poulin]

John, I figured I better move this over to the proper thread. I guess your right, I,m prob better off getting a hold of bill and starting off right. What would you suggest I start with?
I also have to make a trip to radio shack to get supplies . What should I pick up to get me started? As always, thanks for your help John.

Vic

[havlicek]

Hi Vic,

Bill Bugenis' coms are good for anything from old Mabuchis right up to modern eurosport and strap motors...so those will work no matter what. For arms, a stack length of around .460" should work for most things and his insulation coating is tough a nails. Don't forget also that D-motor arms (the American ones) make dandy rewinds and aren't that tough to strip. Maybe Ron Hershman has some he'll sell you...or maybe some of the track owners or another refurbisher. The D-motor coms are actually pretty good for milder winds, but they're fairly skinny which might leave a big gap between the brush hoods and the com depending on the endbell. As for supplies...as long as you have some good wire and some epoxy, you should be set. Probably some #29 or maybe #28 wire will go a long way on a whole variety of motors. If you want to tie the coms off (probably not necessary on the milder winds), some kevlar thread works well...but even 100% cotton thread will work as it will burn at a temp that is near where alot of other things will start to fail. Don't use any synthetic thread (other than kevlar)...they're basically "plastic" and will melt at a low temp. Unwaxed dental floss is good too and is thicker than thread.

-john

PS...I got the motor tested and it absolutely screams at 6V. Might be too much for the setup (???), it seems like it would be at home in one of those cobalt thingamabobs

[Robert V.]

That is a cool little motor i am curious to know how well it will run, .300 stack that is a small one.