3573 replies to this topic

[Victor Poulin]

I have a few old falcon motors John, Let me get out to the shop this afternoon and see what I have, and I,ll PM you later on.
BTW- I got ahold of Bill this morning, and He's going to help me out with some supplies to help get me started with winding. I'll be bugging the hell out of you with questions once I have my supplies and am ready to give it a whirl lol. Trying to strip down used arms just isn't working out so well for me so I thought I might be better off starting out with new blanks.

Vic

[havlicek]

Just ask-away Vic, if I can't answer something hopefully someone else can chime-in. Stripping arms is a huge PITA for me too, except for the rare ones that you come across that are "easier". For a long time, arms have either been epoxied or held with some pretty tough "lacquer-like" materials., tough as heck to get off. Those I put aside for a day when I'm in the mood for self-torture and do only that. Using new blanks will both be easier AND will often give you more consistently reliable results, mostly becaue of the powder coating and (hopefully) straight-er shafts. Shame that the manufacturers mostly won't sell them, but Bill Bugenis' stuff is absolutely top shelf. If you have a cheap-o multimeter, you can test your arms before you epoxy them so that if something isn't right you can simply take them apart and redo them. That way, say a half dozen arms can provide you with a LOT of winding experience with none of them tossed for things like shorts or uneven winds. For most uses, a .460"-ish long stack will serve well. For these mini motor conversions, a short stack of around .330" is about max...leaving you enough room so the com isn't crowding the stack and a little breathing room for helping the motor to run a little cooler. Besides, there's no reason to have the stack longer than the magnets from what I can tell, in fact it seems to me that it should be shorter since the field produced "radiates out from the ends of the stack and not just the "faces" or "crown".


-john

[Victor Poulin]

He's sending me .440 stacks to get started with. He thought it would be a good starting point for me. One thing I still need is epoxy. Ok, here come the questions lol. When I start my first wind on my first poll, where do I start my wire at? Maybe there are some picks on here showing? Second question, I have no means of welding the com tabs, is soldering them ok?
And third question is mounting the com to the shaft? I told you I'd be a pain lol. So I assume with these blanks from Bill I wont need to use furnace cement on them?
Ok, thats all the brain picking for now, I'll give you a break lol.

Vic

[havlicek]

Hi Vic,

.440" stacks are fine, maybe even better for the "average" motor. Some motors can use a little longer stack, but going a little shorter isn't going to be a problem at all.

When I start my first wind on my first poll, where do I start my wire at?

Start at the first com tab of course...and the first one is whichever one you choose! It doesn't matter if you wind clockwise or counterclockwise around the poles, but you need to pay attention to the position of the com tabs when you "set" the com, as this will set the timing of the armature. Look at some factory arms and you'll see what I mean. There are some vintage coms from Tradeship that had the tabs offset to "build-in" some timing advance (I got bit by that one), but those are relatively rare.

Second question, I have no means of welding the com tabs, is soldering them ok

Absolutely as long as the wind isn't too hot (say up to a #28) and nothing else goes wrong with the motor to cause it to heat up. Even if something did...the motor would be toast anyway. There are some choices for solder, 60/40 rosin core is good for most electrical stuff, but there are higher-temp solders that can give you a little more insurance. Just never use acid on any electrical connections and always be sure to scrape away the insulation from the wire where it will be soldered. Com tabs should be clean also...same general rules for soldering anywhere else.

And third question is mounting the com to the shaft?

After understanding how to position the com as far as timing goes, you really only need to temporarily hold it in place as the epoxy will hold it permanently afterwards. You can have the com in place and put a tiny drop of cyanoacrylate (
Krazy Glue") right on the bottom of the com where it meets the shaft and slightly wiggle the com to let it seep in there. It will grab pretty quick so you have to be pretty much in position and ready. CA glue does give off toxic vapors when heated (and is good for lifting fingerprints too!)...so that should be kept in mind. You can also use a small "dot" of epoxy and then twist the com down into it and let it cure. You can also use the stronger "Loctite" adhesives as well...whatever will hold the com fairly securely while you're working on the arm is fine.


-john

[Victor Poulin]

Thank you John that's a big help. I sent Pablo an e-mail to see if he might still have those winding instructions he talked about in one of the winding threads. I think that would be a big help for me if he still has them. Is there a web site where I can order a small amount of epoxy from? I remember you saying you had found a new source or another brand of epoxy that you thought worked better, but I also remember you saying how expensive it was lol.

Vic

[Robert V.]

Sorry Vic i thought you rewound that motor but it still looks good, i haven't had to much trouble taking apart the old Parma 16d's since i started using a small pair of side cutters also know as spru cutters, wire cutters, i just clip the wire at each end of the stack and peel the wire off in a few large chunks using a small pair of needle nose pliers, next i mount the arm in a pin vise heat up the comm tabs with my soldering iron and pull off the left over bits of wire, than just clean up your stacks by scarping off the left over epoxy with an old half round xacto blade and finish up with a wire wheel in my Dremel. I really prefer the arms that are really burnt bad as they come apart much easier than the good ones, don't worry to much about damaging the insulators as you can replace these with the furnace cement, remeber this is just how i take them apart John or yourself may find a better way. I can't wait to see your first rewind.

[Victor Poulin]

Thanks Robert, I can't wait to give it a try either . I'm thinking of getting a hold of Rick at R-geo to see if he still sells the winding cranks. I know that you really don't need one to wind, but I thought it might make for a neater job.

Vic

[Bill from NH]

Vic, there was a new RGEO winder on ebay about a week ago. At the time I saw it, there was only one bid. I assumed it might have been yours.

[havlicek]

Hi Vic,

There's really no way to get the neatest and most consistent results without using a winding crank. Even using a pin vise doesn't allow you to properly tension the wire as you wind the arm and as you do more and more and start paying attention to your patterns, you'll appreciate how much a crank does for making the work turn out nicely. BTW...I would definitely pick Bill's brain for info too. He knows his stuff and has been really helpful to myself and other bloggers as well on all things slot-car. Besides (unlike me)...his memory seems to be in perfect working order!

-john

[Victor Poulin]

Vic, there was a new RGEO winder on ebay about a week ago. At the time I saw it, there was only one bid. I assumed it might have been yours.

No it wasn't mine Bill, I never had one. I do think I remember seeing a winder on there, but I thing I'd just as soon get one from Rick and at least I know what I got lol.
You ready to come over to the house for some winding school?



Vic

[Bill from NH]

Vic, I'll plan to come over after Thanksgiving. Want me to bring my generic winder too? It looks like a LaGanke, but is a chrome plated no-name. I started racing with a home group in Weare, NH. They have two tracks, one a 5-lane oval & the second looks like the spitting image of Joe's, but was built by the Tunkels in Tenn.

[Victor Poulin]

Vic, I'll plan to come over after Thanksgiving. Want me to bring my generic winder too? It looks like a LaGanke, but is a chrome plated no-name. I started racing with a home group in Weare, NH. They have two tracks, one a 5-lane oval & the second looks like the spitting image of Joe's, but was built by the Tunkels in Tenn.

Thats great Bill, I remember you telling me you were trying to hook up with them. After Thanksgiving is good Bill, and yes bring your winder .

[havlicek]

Something that has come up in the past about home-winding is the whole subject of balancing...static vs dynamic. Without wanting to open up a whole can of worms, some things have become clear to me on this whole thing. The first is that, with practice and decent technique (as well as one of Rick/RGEO's beautiful balancing blocks), you absolutely CAN make a noticeable and significant improvement in how smoothly a motor runs. I think I'm pretty good at it and have seen the improvement many many times. It's also true that, as your winds get better and your motors run faster and faster...even tiny amounts of imbalance become more significant. When you start doing HOT motors, tiny imbalances become really significant and can lead to not just vibration, but also excess heat/arcing and ultimately premature motor failure. Imagine how, when a motor is spinning really fast and vibrating, the brushes (even with the com trued and a tight setup) will be bouncing off the com. The brushes being held in contact with the com by springs, are like tires on a car driving over rough terrain...bouncing and losing contact with the surface as the ride gets rougher. When the brushes "bounce" and the tiniest gap opens up for a microsecond...you get an arc jumping that gap. That arcing means heat and heat is a motor killer. You can, to a certain degree increase the spring tension to keep the brushes in contact with the com and do a good break-in to radius the brushes exactly to the com...but vibration will win in the end.

I've had some motors that were fairly "well-balanced" and in the end have to guess whether they're "good enough" for the wind. For sure an old Mabuchi #29 rewind will tolerate a little more imbalance than a Mura #25 and a Mura #25 will tolerate a little more than a modern strap motor. As the revs go up, the effect is multiplied and the forces acting on a big-wire arm when it's even a tiny bit out of balance must be crazy. So, for anyone doing rewinding (that would include all 5 of us ), when you get to a point where you can't get any better with static balancing and the arms you're doing are hot enough to really need "the best", it would pay to have someone who knows what they're doing balance the arm dynamically. I've taken the position in the past that static balancing is often "good enough" and sidesteps the issue of having to send every arm you wind out and that is often true, but it's also true that a good arm that's really spinning needs dynamic balancing to live a decent life. Find out who's doing it and what they charge and if they're recommended by others.

-john

PS...vibration is obviously not a good thing for the life of bearings and bushings...gears etc.
PPS: It's also easy to tell when an arm "needs" better balancing, just spin the arm up starting at low voltage I don't recommend it, but I will often spin arms up no load all the way and as you increase the voltage and feel the vibration increase or "change" (because of harmonics) you may also get to a point near 12V where the motor doesn't seem to be spinning faster even as you apply the last couple of volts. Another clue is current draw. Hook up a well balanced motor and watch the current draw of the motor as it spins faster, then do the same with a motor that has an imbalance. Again, don't spin motors up all the way no-load...I'm just saying what I've seen.
PPPS: Arcing at the com will also leave a burned residue on the com that prevents good conduction of current, so not only will heat kill the motor but motor efficiency will drop as it's run over time.

[Bill from NH]

Alpha Slot Car Products, owned by multi-time national champion Paul Pfieffer in WI, offers "balance only" for $2.50/arm. I've sent any "reconditioning" work to Paul for years, as well as a few unbalanced 16D arms for the "balance only." I've not been disappointed. They might not be the only shop that can do it, but when I find somebody doing good work, I tend to stick with them. The only other shops having done arm work for me in the past were the shops of John Thorp & Joel Montague.

[havlicek]

Those are places with excellent reps Bill and I wouldn't doubt for a second your experiences with them! I've recently had Bill Bugenis do this for me and, while I don't know if he even offers this service "for hire", he's done some magic on arms for me already too! Of course, names like Thorp and Montague are well-known even to cavemen like me! Again, I don't want to dissuade people from rewinding because they think this is another pain-in-the-neck thing they must always have done. You can learn to do static balancing at home and get often good-enough!

-john

[Victor Poulin]

Hi Vic,

There's really no way to get the neatest and most consistent results without using a winding crank. Even using a pin vise doesn't allow you to properly tension the wire as you wind the arm and as you do more and more and start paying attention to your patterns, you'll appreciate how much a crank does for making the work turn out nicely. BTW...I would definitely pick Bill's brain for info too. He knows his stuff and has been really helpful to myself and other bloggers as well on all things slot-car. Besides (unlike me)...his memory seems to be in perfect working order!

-john

Sorry John, I missed this post last night somehow lol. I plan to get a hold of Rick today to see if he might still have a crank he could sell me. And yes trust me, I do pick Bills brain all the time, just ask him His eyesight isn't what it used to be[ I think many of us old farts can say that] , but he still does a great job of teaching me and getting the job done. I don't think I could have a better friend/teacher !! I have to be honest, I'm a little scared to try my first wind, but knowing I have Bill in my corner helps greatly And I'm sure that just like anything, after I've done a few, it will get easier as I go. I used to feel the same way about tackling motor building, and now it's second nature, thanks to all the help I got not only from Bill, but from all of our members here that went out of their way to answer the ton of questions I had lol.

Vic

[Victor Poulin]

To me, at $2.50 a pop, it would seem well worth it to send them out for balancing . If nothing else, just to know that they are perfectly done. I may not do it on the first few I do, but I hope that as I get better at it, I will .

Vic

[Alchemist]

Hi Vic,

I'm excited for you that you'll be getting rewinding workshop/lessons from Bill. If I may ask you to share photos please?!

Thank you Vic!

Ernie

[Victor Poulin]

Hi Vic,

I'm excited for you that you'll be getting rewinding workshop/lessons from Bill. If I may ask you to share photos please?!

Thank you Vic!

Ernie

Sure will Ernie !! Unless they look like crap Just kidding. Everybody has to start somewhere, I,m sure even John and Bills first few arms prob weren't real pretty lol.
I,ll be sure to snap a few pics through out the process .

Vic

[havlicek]

I,m sure even John and Bills first few arms prob weren't real pretty lo

I can't speak for Bill...but I did some awful things to perfectly good armatures and motors...still do sometimes! I'm doing things right now to a sorta "tiny strap motor" right now that are just wrong in so many ways!

-john

[GearBear]

Sorry John, I missed this post last night somehow lol. I plan to get a hold of Rick today to see if he might still have a crank he could sell me. And yes trust me, I do pick Bills brain all the time, just ask him His eyesight isn't what it used to be[ I think many of us old farts can say that] , but he still does a great job of teaching me and getting the job done. I don't think I could have a better friend/teacher !! I have to be honest, I'm a little scared to try my first wind, but knowing I have Bill in my corner helps greatly And I'm sure that just like anything, after I've done a few, it will get easier as I go. I used to feel the same way about tackling motor building, and now it's second nature, thanks to all the help I got not only from Bill, but from all of our members here that went out of their way to answer the ton of questions I had lol.

Vic

Another way to get a good wind (with or without the crank) is to use a fly tying thread bobbin with a ceramic tube. The small wire we use for arms will easily go through these bobbins. I've "Chucked" up an arm in my Rotary Fly tying vise and loaded up a bobbin with wire and gotten very good results winding with the arm stationary. But the best thing about the bobbin is that you can fit it between the stacks so that you can precisely lay down the wire. Plus you can easily control the tension of the spool with your palm so that you get tight wraps without stretching the wire. I've yet to test any of the arms I have used this method on as I'm waiting on getting some of the Easy Silver Paste Solder to braze up the comm. In the mean time, I've wound and unwound the same arm several times just to see how well I can lay down the wire.

I have one of these bobbins for my Nor-Vice and it works great. The narrow spool puts little stress on the wire as it comes off the spool. After spinning lots of feather and fur, spinning wire is easy!

[Victor Poulin]

That's a good idea also Gary

[Alchemist]

I'm doing things right now to a sorta "tiny strap motor" right now that are just wrong in so many ways!

Pictures please - please John!!!


Thank you!


Ernie

[havlicek]

...your wish is my new nut:




...teensy weensy, but still large enough for a serious endbell...and shiny too!

-john

[Victor Poulin]

Anyone interested in splitting some Duralco epoxy with me? It can only be bought in quantity and the smallest amount you can get is 80 bucks. From what john says, thats enough to do hundreds of arms. I wouldn't mind buying that much, but it has a shelf life and I would never use that much.

Or,, does anyone have a small amount they would be willing to sell me?

Or,, does anyone know where I could get something else that might work for epoxying that I could get in a smaller amount?

Gee, now I know what they mean when they say this can be an expensive hobby



Vic