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FSCS 2022 rules and schedule discussion


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#51 dalek

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 08:44 PM

A change to 1/16 seems unnecessary if we accept RTRs explanation that there is a splitter on the front and a bumper. The RTR does have an extra step on the front compared to the OS body, so its fair to say the intent was to have a bumper and splitter. I compared the height of the hood between the RTR cut on the cut line and an OS cut to have a 1/8 bumper and theyre extremely close if not identical.

If someone cuts more of the front splitter off the RTR theyre likely to create problems with bending it under and dragging, so theres little reward to cut it down further.

 

When you say "an OS cut to have a 1/8 bumper", I assume that you mean 1/8" is the height of the vertical material across the front of the body.
 
And, as I understand your comparison of the two bodies, your opinion is that the frontal area of the bodies will be very close to equal if the OS has 1/8" of material and the Titan has been cut on the cutline.
 
A Titan cut on the cutline will result in about 1/16" of vertical material.  That's where the 1/16" suggested spec comes from.
 
So my take, at this point, on the NASCAR minimum bumper rule is, 
-- Titan:  1/16" of vertical material across the front
-- OS-237:  1/8" of vertical material across the front
-- RF Dodge:  ????
 
Note:  The rules say that in all car classes, you can't cut into the top of the body.  That should take care of anyone cutting a splitter off in an attempt to use the bumper that's behind it as the vertical material.
 
Soooo, if my logic above doesn't have any holes in it, then I guess that the only thing left to do is for someone to make a comparison of the Titan frontal area to the RF Dodge. 
 
I don't have the OS body or RF so I can't compare them to the Titan.





#52 Wizard Of Iz

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 08:45 PM

 

If the BoD approves 1/16" of vertical material across the front, for the Titan, I assume that the same should apply to the other two approved cars -- the OS-237 and the RF Dodge.
 
If you see any downsides, speak up so Ed and Marcus have your input.
 

 

 

 

Please don't change the rule to 1/16".  When we start changing long-standing rules, it starts a slide down a slippery slope.

 

Go measure an uncut Titan body.  The line is at exactly 1/8".  Measure before you cut and you'll easily have a 1/8" front bumper/splitter/vertical thing.  If that's too difficult for people to follow ... then make the Titan body illegal because the mfg didn't put the cut line at the right place and it's too confusing for people.  (And that would be as stooopid as changing the rule to 1/16".)

 

Please leave the rule at 1/8" for all 4" Stock Car bodies. It just isn't that hard to follow.

 

 

A change to 1/16 seems unnecessary if we accept RTRs explanation that there is a splitter on the front and a bumper. The RTR does have an extra step on the front compared to the OS body, so its fair to say the intent was to have a bumper and splitter. I compared the height of the hood between the RTR cut on the cut line and an OS cut to have a 1/8 bumper and theyre extremely close if not identical.

If someone cuts more of the front splitter off the RTR theyre likely to create problems with bending it under and dragging, so theres little reward to cut it down further.

 

Bucky for President!


Rollin Isbell
 


#53 dalek

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 09:34 PM

See post #18 as to how to get 1/8" of vertical material on a Titan.



#54 Hot Slots

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Posted 21 March 2022 - 11:58 AM

I'm going to drop the front end the RTR like it's HOTT and staple a diaplane to it. Lets Send It.
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#55 Jay Guard

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Posted 21 March 2022 - 06:25 PM

Rollin:  You can't ban a body because someone can't cut it to a certain spec unless the design of the body doesn't somehow allow it.  I really think all of this discussion is a bit silly as a .060" difference in the front isn't going to make much of a difference.  The fast guys are still going to be fast even with a "big" front bumper/splitter.  Maybe change the rule to say an 1/8" of vertical material at the front and give a little in tech if it's obvious someone is trying to follow the rules.  If they cut the splitter/bumper down to nothing then bounce them in tech.  A little less "precise" but probably pretty realistic. The tech guy can always fall back on the rule if someone really tries to push the envelope.  Remember guys, it's having fun with toy cars here, not life and death.

 

For example, in a series I was tech inspector for I would use a .047" tool to check for a .050" clearance.  If a car didn't pass tech of course the offending racer would usually dispute it.  I would hand them my tech tool and a dial caliper and when they saw it was only .047" they would simply say "Oh", and go change their tires, 'nuff said.


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#56 dalek

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Posted 21 March 2022 - 07:10 PM

It would be a bad situation if there are any guys that have Titan bodies and, in good faith, have cut the fronts on the cutline, and then are told at tech that they can't race because the body is illegal.
 
Marcus and Ed have both approved 1/16" for the Titan (at least for the rest of this season).  The only thing that still needs to be done is the final decisions regarding the other two bodies.  
 


#57 Wizard Of Iz

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Posted 21 March 2022 - 08:09 PM

 

 

" ...   (And that would be as stooopid as changing the rule to 1/16".)

 

 

 

Rollin:  You can't ban a body because someone can't cut it to a certain spec unless the design of the body doesn't somehow allow it.  I really think all of this discussion is a bit silly as a .060" difference in the front isn't going to make much of a difference.  The fast guys are still going to be fast even with a "big" front bumper/splitter.  Maybe change the rule to say an 1/8" of vertical material at the front and give a little in tech if it's obvious someone is trying to follow the rules.  If they cut the splitter/bumper down to nothing then bounce them in tech.  A little less "precise" but probably pretty realistic. The tech guy can always fall back on the rule if someone really tries to push the envelope.  Remember guys, it's having fun with toy cars here, not life and death.

 

For example, in a series I was tech inspector for I would use a .047" tool to check for a .050" clearance.  If a car didn't pass tech of course the offending racer would usually dispute it.  I would hand them my tech tool and a dial caliper and when they saw it was only .047" they would simply say "Oh", and go change their tires, 'nuff said.

 

 

Jay ... notice that my post said that banning the body would be "stooopid."

 

I agree with your take.  If I was the tech and the body had clearly been cut on the cut line then I'd probably let it slide and tell the racer that he needs to be careful on their next body.   Though it's a sad commentary that we don't think racers are capable of measuring 1/8" on their own.

 

 

 

It would be a bad situation if there are any guys that have Titan bodies and, in good faith, have cut the fronts on the cutline, and then are told at tech that they can't race because the body is illegal.
 
Marcus and Ed have both approved 1/16" for the Titan (at least for the rest of this season).  The only thing that still needs to be done is the final decisions regarding the other two bodies.  
 

 

 

 

In the grand scheme of things it's not worth arguing about.  

 

Again ... I wasn't advocating telling someone they can't race because they followed the cut line that's "exactly" 1/8".  

 

My suggestion was to let them race - presuming you can see that they truly followed the cut line and didn't just slam the front - and tell them that they should have measured twice before they cut once .... and to pay attention on their next body.

 

It's nice to know that anything goes at tech if enough guys do it wrong.


Rollin Isbell
 


#58 FSCS BoD

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Posted 26 March 2022 - 06:24 AM

Even though a NASCAR with an unpainted roof was allowed to pass tech recently, a body with an improperly painted roof (using the embossed window lines on the body as a guide) is not legal because the body is not "opaque when viewed from above".
 


#59 gc4895

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Posted 26 March 2022 - 09:40 AM

Tempest in a teapot.
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#60 Tampabay racer

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Posted 26 March 2022 - 05:21 PM


Even though a NASCAR with an unpainted roof was allowed to pass tech recently, a body with an improperly painted roof (using the embossed window lines on the body as a guide) is not legal because the body is not "opaque when viewed from above".
 



The chassis was not visible so pleased explain to me how its illegal? NASCAR used to run convertibles back in the day. 1956ish.

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Posted 26 March 2022 - 05:25 PM

Changing the rules once the season has started isnt the best thing you BoD people have done. Some people have painted and mounted several bodies for several months worth of racing. Plus the 1/8 front bumper has been a rule in Florida since I can remember when I started racing in the USRA FL division 2 around 90-91. Why try and fix it its not broken?

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#62 Marcus P1 Raceway

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Posted 26 March 2022 - 07:48 PM


The chassis was not visible so pleased explain to me how its illegal? NASCAR used to run convertibles back in the day. 1956ish.



Brian none of the FSCS approved Nascar bodies are convertibles, so the roof and columns need to be painted. If one day the FSCS BoD approves a convertible I will definitely make it clear or if possible cut the roof off, until that happens I will continue painting what is needed.
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#63 Tampabay racer

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Posted 27 March 2022 - 07:27 AM

Blah blah blah.
Picky picky picky. Lets go Brandon.

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#64 dalek

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Posted 27 March 2022 - 07:29 AM

Ever since the Titan was approved, some racers, me included, have cut the front on the cutline.  And doing so, results in a bumper that is much closer to 1/16" than 1/8".
 
Ed and Marcus have tech'd Titans for years and have allowed them to have 1/16" bumpers.
 
To me, this means that the minimum bumper rule for Titans has always been 1/16".  Ed an Marcus set the precedent years ago.
 


#65 Hot Slots

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Posted 27 March 2022 - 07:52 AM

So 1/16 for the rtr and 1/8 for the other 2 bodies?
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#66 Wizard Of Iz

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Posted 27 March 2022 - 08:41 AM

 

Ever since the Titan was approved, some racers, me included, have cut the front on the cutline.  And doing so, results in a bumper that is much closer to 1/16" than 1/8".
 
Ed and Marcus have tech'd Titans for years and have allowed them to have 1/16" bumpers.
 
To me, this means that the minimum bumper rule for Titans has always been 1/16".  Ed an Marcus set the precedent years ago.
 

 

 

 

You never bothered to take a few seconds to measure the bumper/splitter before you cut?  As meticulous as you are in your car prep, that's pretty surprising to me.

 

Measure twice, cut once.

 

Measure once, cuss twice.

 

 

 

The only Titan I have cut out is a non-COT (though a COT is coming) and the bumper/splitter is exactly 1/8."   That's because it was measured and cut at the bottom of the cut line.  

 

IF the front bumper/splitter was cut at 1/16" ... it would be cut ABOVE the cut line.  

 

AGAIN ... I'm not advocating turning anyone away on race day unless they obviously just knife-edged the front.  But remind them of the 1/8" rule, mark the body, and tell them to bring a legal body to the next race.  Because if someone presents a body with just a 1/16" front bumper/splitter, then they deliberately cheated and cut above the cut line.

 

If the BOD is determined to change this 30+ year old rule, then I don't see how you can apply it to just one manufacturer.  

 

I've never seen a Red Fox or O/S stock car body, so I'll ask ... is their cut line exactly 1/8"? Or, does their cut line leave a little room for error?  

 

I guess I just don't understand why some Titan owners are getting a "pass" for not measuring before they cut.

 

And is the new rule going to be "cut on the cut line?"  Or, is the new rule going to be "must have minimum 1/16" front bumper/splitter?"  Which is above the cut line.


Rollin Isbell
 


#67 Hot Slots

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Posted 27 March 2022 - 10:29 AM

I know the Red Fox doesn't have a cut line, I'm pretty sure the OS doesn't either.
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#68 Danny Zona

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Posted 27 March 2022 - 01:10 PM

This is probably the most intriguing thread I've read in a while.
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Test, test, test and go test some more.
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#69 dalek

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Posted 27 March 2022 - 01:34 PM

I just measured an uncut Titan body at the middle of the front.
 
If all of the front cutline (the embossed depression) is removed, the remaining purely vertical height of the splitter will be a fat 1/16".  
 
But if you also include the initial curved portion of the splitter when measuring the height, then the height will be almost 1/8".
 
These measurements agree with Brandon's pictures in posts #17 and #18.
 
If it is estimated that the top of the splitter is slightly above the initial curved portion, then we have the required 1/8" height.  Yeaaaaa!
 
If everyone understands that this is how the Titan has always been measured (because they've always passed tech), then we're good to go and no rules changes are needed.
 


#70 Wizard Of Iz

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Posted 27 March 2022 - 03:52 PM

This is probably the most intriguing thread I've read in a while.

 
I don't know why the bumper change annoys me.  In fact ... it even annoys me that this annoys me.  I kinda wish I could just let it go.  But it's like a dang mosquito bite that.   just.   won't.   stop.   itching.
 
Shoot ... I haven't even raced in two years.  But ......  the boys had better add some bullet proofing to their bodies because I ordered some parts and a few of us from Jacksonville are going to make the trip in April to "God's Waiting Room" and put our old out-of-date stuff on the track.  I'm sure the layoff won't have any affect at all.  "TRACK!!!"
 
I figure if I'm going to biotch about the rules ... I should at least show up and race every now and then.
 
OH ... and my Titan NASCAR bodies will have 1/8" front bumper.
 
 
 
Back to keeping DZ entertained. ;)
 
 

 
I just measured an uncut Titan body at the middle of the front.
 
If all of the front cutline (the embossed depression) is removed, the remaining purely vertical height of the splitter will be a fat 1/16".  
 
But if you also include the initial curved portion of the splitter when measuring the height, then the height will be almost 1/8".
 
These measurements agree with Brandon's pictures in posts #17 and #18.
 
If it is estimated that the top of the splitter is slightly above the initial curved portion, then we have the required 1/8" height.  Yeaaaaa!
 
If everyone understands that this is how the Titan has always been measured (because they've always passed tech), then we're good to go and no rules changes are needed.
 
 

 
 
I did the same thing.  The cut line is clearly visible at the each corner and is at 1/8" -- with no room for error.  And, yes, the line kind of disappears across the middle of the front of the body.  But the cut line is still barely visible if you get the lighting just right.  
 
Again ... if you cut at the bottom of the cut line, you'll have a 1/8" front bumper.  If you cut in the middle of the line or at the top of the line, you'll be just a bit under an 1/8" ... and technically illegal.  (In which case I would give the racer a "pass" and 1 warning because of the poorly defined cut line.)
 
But ... If you only have a 1/16" bumper ... you clearly cut well above the cut line and made zero effort to follow the line or the rules.
 
So we're going to change a 30+ year rule because Ralph Thorne Racing did a lousy job of providing a clearly visible cut line and skimped out on the amount of vertical plastic???  
 
Even if there is NO cut line -- like is apparently the case with the Red Fox and the Outisight (which I've never seen in person) -- it's still the racer's responsibility to measure an 1/8" and make their own cut line.  Or can I cut those bodies with NO front bumper and simply say ... "well, there's no cut line."

Rollin Isbell
 


#71 Bucky

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Posted 27 March 2022 - 04:37 PM

The chassis clearance rule changed, the maximum car width rule changed, we arent racing 16d motors, the cars dont have front wheels, rear spoilers are now rear wings, theres no minimum roof height, number decals dont have to be placed in nascar appropriate locations, I dont think drivers have to be painted, and the world didnt come to a standstill. If its 1/16 or 1/8 everything will basically remain the same.
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#72 Hot Slots

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Posted 27 March 2022 - 06:17 PM

I used a 16d with an American arm at the last 2 races, they haven't said anything yet.
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#73 Hot Slots

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Posted 27 March 2022 - 06:24 PM

On a separate note have the points standings posted, I wanna see how bad everyone is beating me.
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#74 Wizard Of Iz

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Posted 27 March 2022 - 07:00 PM

The chassis clearance rule changed, the maximum car width rule changed, we arent racing 16d motors, the cars dont have front wheels, rear spoilers are now rear wings, theres no minimum roof height, number decals dont have to be placed in nascar appropriate locations, I dont think drivers have to be painted, and the world didnt come to a standstill. If its 1/16 or 1/8 everything will basically remain the same.

 

 

Hey ... I get it that rules change over time.  Shoot ... even NASCAR changed where they put the numbers on the real race cars.   And perhaps the one constant through all of the changes you mention is ..... an 1/8" front bumper for 4" stock cars.

 

And I don't think I want to go back to 16Ds ... but they never two-speeded.  They just let the smoke escape.  Sometimes in spectacular fashion.

 

 

BTW ... I still say ..... Bucky For President!


Rollin Isbell
 


#75 Hot Slots

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Posted 30 March 2022 - 08:35 AM

So that I understand the Titan Rule, as long as the splitter has some turn down it is legal.
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