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MOAM motor ballpark gearing advice please


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#26 Bill from NH

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Posted 20 October 2022 - 12:20 PM

Erkel is one Port Jeff racer who I haven't seen racing retros. He was quite a good wing car racer in the late 90s & early 2000s. 


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#27 Pablo

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Posted 21 October 2022 - 07:43 PM

Riviera test #2 today was a home run - dropping one tooth on pinion improved it in every way. Driver/owner says no need for wider wheels, he's 100% happy with it as is now. So it's in his hands now for body work. My job is done   :)


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#28 jamfanwp

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Posted 25 December 2022 - 03:18 PM

Hey guys, I have a bit more info on these motors.... They're mine. Without too much backstory, I prototyped motors from a bunch of different companies. I'll try to address as much as I can without writing a small novel.

 

First off, my goal was heavily tilted toward wing car racing. These weren't originally even considered for drag motors, until we actually started testing some batches of motors and someone wanted to try it. Some of my local friends compared it with other motors, and to ball park the power, they pull 1.5-1.7 amps at 12v. Their tests worked better than I ever expected. So I went ahead with that leg of the project. I advertised originally just for drag racing because they are VERY hot motors, and I had reservations about life-span in a wing car.

 

Ballpark gearing for drag racing is 14-16/50 64 pitch gearing. However, drag cars are differ so vastly with tire width, car weight, etc, that every car is truly unique. 

 

In wing cars, gearing is almost exclusively 12 pinion, and 26-29 spur gear. Some of the first motors I sold are still running, and being raced multiple times per week. Winning very consistently.

 

"The name looks engraved on it. Probably a motor someone discovered for another product and found out it was fast. For a time, paint ball gun motors were the rage here. I'd try gearing it the same as the other FK drag motors."

 

- Not at all the case, although I do like the etching on my motors better than a lot of the other brands. 

 

"I do recall someone pointing out a high RPM FK motor with that style can cutout.

Even when people ask me about my motor, my only experience is on my track."

 

- Yes, people who race heads up are quite adamant that these are the fastest FK motors. I have one guy who has several drag strips in his basement, some of them very elaborate and set at 30 volts.... He said they are the best FK can motors he's seen. I personally prefer to just let the motors speak for themselves, and so far they have done very well.

 

"I think these MOAM motors first appeared on eBay early in the summer with claims of all sorts of high RPMs."

 

- That's pretty much correct off the top of my head. I first let them out into the wild around that time.

 

"Will the Chinese toothbrush motor craze ever stop?"

 

- I am working on some other products as well as more traditional motor parts, but it takes a significant amount of money to get your feet wet with suppliers who won't discuss anything less than 1000 units. I hope to be making some announcements soon going in some directions that none of the other motor companies are trying to go.

 

"MOAM = Mother Of All Motors"

 

- Correct. Yea it's cheesy, so what. I'm open to name suggestions for future products......

 

"The seller sold 103 of them, according to a link that's gone dead"

 

- That specific listing sold 103 units, and yes I have mostly sold on Ebay thus far. I listed them multiple times because I wanted to press some other companies on the pricing front. That's really why I started doing this, was to drive down motor prices. It has taken on a life of it's own though. There are far more than 103 of them in existence.

 

"When I went to Phil's link, it said the item was no longer available but I was able to get to the original ad with the below... "interesting" product description.

It seems like it was written by the same guy who just waited on me at Arby's, who asked his co-worker for the tweezers, so he could serve me my cherry turnover."

 

- It was written by someone who was very concerned about loosing thousands of dollars due to a problematic product launch on Ebay. It would have sucked to have sold 100, then had to refund most of them due to unforeseen problems. The very first listings were worded to make 100% sure people understood they were buying a design with limited testing in the wild, and small quantities were sold in order to make sure a large number of failures followed by refunds did not happen. Other than that, no comment.

 

"It's interesting that the person selling this motor lives in the Cleveland, TN area, same as Pablo. The MOAM doesn't even have ball bearings or an aluminum endbell. How can it be the "Mother" without them?"

- I don't live in Cleveland. My motors aren't popular in Cleveland as the local track is a road course, an oval, and a drag strip. However the Strip does bracket racing, so it's a game of consistency rather than speed. Getting a MOAM to hook up consistently is asking a lot of a motor with that much torque. I know the Bill Pinch, the track owner in Cleveland TN, and DO live very close to Cleveland, but not actually IN Cleveland.

 

"The ball bearings are from the Father. The FOAM will be the BB version. I can only imagine it's in the works."

- The ball bearing version should be at market within two months. It is also balanced, and will be named the "MOAM B3"

 

"This made me curious about Chinese motors, so I did a little Internet search. Nothing like an FK-130 with 95K rpm no-load, but it's not difficult to have one's very own 75K ball bearing, neo mag motor in a variety of can styles with custom logos. No worries, though; I'm not interested in bringing out another line of FK motors.

 

Note the seller compared a "MOAM" to a Phoenix. The original Phoenix is a 60K motor. If the "MOAM" is a 70 or 75K motor, it'll be a lot faster. Actually, I've seen a pretty similar motor with a different can hole shape, and it was very fast - until it melted a brush spring-arm."

 

- What actually happens is they advertise them at 75k, but then you end up with an extremely unbalanced motor that turns somewhere between 45 and 60k. Finding slot car quality motors is far more difficult than I ever imagined, and I was standing in your shoes at one point..

 

 

A word from me, as the "owner" of MOAM

 

I didn't expect this to take off on the level that it has, it was actually a supplier I am in the process of prototyping some potential products with that steered me to this post. I'm amazed my motors have made it this far, and it really means a lot to see people even discussing them.

The actual RPM of the motors naturally depends on the voltage applied. I've turned the voltage a little too high on bench tests and maxed out my tachometer at 99,999.... However, this is in free spin, and they fairly violently throw windings, or melt brushes at this speed in free spin. I ship them with notation asking people to keep at lower voltages on benchtop power supplies for this very reason. Along with the suggestion to wear safety glasses because I've had to pull part of a winding from one of these motors out of my finger. The voltage knob got out of hand and hit roughly 14.5 volts.... the motor threw a winding so hard the end of it broke off and stuck in my finger. It was very violent for such a small object. 

 

We have a facebook page, "MOAM" it's listed as a hobby store. There is not a lot of info on it yet, I haven't spent a single penny advertising the MOAM. Feel free to message me on here if you have experience with my motors, feedback is what has made this succeed so far, and I can't continue to produce new motors and motor parts without direct feedback from the people using them. While my goal is to lower the price of slot car motors, it is evolving into an opportunity to provide a better motor than anybody else.The only weak-point in the current MOAM design is that it doesn't do well on 14 volt tracks with wing cars. Drag racing doesn't matter because the motor runs for a second or less. When the voltage on a king track is bumped up above the more traditional mid-13v range, (some tracks are going as high as 14.3v) the only pinion you can use is a 12 tooth 64 pitch.  However, that is only for the original batch of MOAM motors. I have made some modifications to the design that is going into production in the next month or two. It will be on ball bearings, and it will be further balanced. I say "further" balanced because the original MOAM at 80,000 rpm laying on a flat surface usually won't vibrate enough to move even laying on a hard surface. Not scientific, but there was one gentleman who used a method of vibration testing with a cup of water sitting on the motor, and the MOAM was smoother than several balanced motors, decisively more smooth than a Pheonix Supra, or any other can motors. Feedback has been consistant that this motor is faster and more powerful than the Pheonix Supra.

 

I will be vastly enlarging the product line as time moves forward. Feedback is immensely helpful with this.


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Jonathan Anderson

#29 MSwiss

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Posted 25 December 2022 - 06:32 PM

You want to drive the price down on motors?

For what reason?

$12-$20 motors aren't cheap enough?

What kind of retail are you shooting for?

What distributor do you plan to sell to?

PS-you mention drag strips with 30V. Are you saying your motor will survive 30V or did the 30V reference have nothing to do with your motors?

PSS-I think you meant 36-39 tooth spur gears.

What are the raceways and who are the racers where this motor is still be used multiple times a week and winning consistently.

You seem to imply there are motors out there that will not wear out.

Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
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17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

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#30 jamfanwp

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Posted 26 December 2022 - 09:02 AM

You want to drive the price down on motors?

For what reason?

$12-$20 motors aren't cheap enough?

What kind of retail are you shooting for?

What distributor do you plan to sell to?

PS-you mention drag strips with 30V. Are you saying your motor will survive 30V or did the 30V reference have nothing to do with your motors?

PSS-I think you meant 36-39 tooth spur gears.

What are the raceways and who are the racers where this motor is still be used multiple times a week and winning consistently.

You seem to imply there are motors out there that will not wear out.

 

 

Because cheaper motors, specifically cheaper wing cars are good for the sport.... The ultimate goal is to get a sub three second car wing car under the $100 barrier. Well one of my goals anyway. My associates know in greater detail what specific avenues I'm aiming for, but the biggest one is to make wing car racing far more affordable.

 

"aren't motors cheap enough"

 

Depends on what you define as cheap, and how you balance quality with price. If I can sell a motor vastly superior to a Pheonix Supra, as an example, for the same price then that is still ultimately a cheaper motor. Bang for your buck so to speak.

 

"What kind of retail are you shooting for?

What distributor do you plan to sell to?"

 

This process has been very organic. I'm not really trying or pushing to sell the motors, I haven't advertised, I TALKED to PCH, but I essentially told them I wasn't "there" yet. They contacted me, I didn't contact them trying to sell anything. If you told me three months ago I'd be fielding questions on forums about my motors I'd have said that's unlikely. I gave the go-ahead on the first production run of MOAM expecting to basically loose at least a few thousand dollars. All I had was Bill Pinch (owner) at my local track, and he's not a wing car guy. Had to test the wing cars on a road course. I cast a lot of lines, and came up with a couple of good leads, and one very good company. As I said above, the vast majority of the motors I ordered to prototype were garbage. Very inconsistent, at best 55-60k rpm, vibrating worse than any motor I'd ever seen. I would have a $300 prototype sample arrive, hook one up to a PSU, and just throw the box the partially opened box in the garbage, or with a few batches; we free-spun them on higher and higher voltage until they popped. I threw away a lot of s****y motors that I paid a lot of money for. I did find one company though. They sent me what was changed around a bit to become the current MOAM. I'm just going to cross each bridge as I get to it. I had low expectations when I started this process, and I keep getting blown away by how well it's actually doing. If it ain't broke, don't fix it..... I don't have concrete answers for dealing with suppliers yet because I've only filled orders for at most, 30 motors at a time. I'll know it's time when a distributor asks me, or I'll keep selling them on ebay, they sell like hot cakes....

 

"PS-you mention drag strips with 30V. Are you saying your motor will survive 30V or did the 30V reference have nothing to do with your motors?"

- Yes, a customer of mine has a 30v drag strip in his basement and has ran my motors for quite a while now. I was suprised too... However, with a drag strip, it doesn't really matter what the voltage is, the motor is gonna run for less than a second. The car most likely still hadn't reached it's max RPM at the end of the track. So yes, I know of people running MOAM on 30V drag strips without any real problem, other than how do you get them hooked up well. Drag cars are so infinitely custom that it's hard to say.

 

"PSS-I think you meant 37-39 spur gear"

Yes, my bad. Totally hit 2 instead of 3 there. Fundamentally the gear ratio is ideal around 3/1. You need 64 pitch gears because the finer teeth are less likely to strip than 48 pitch. One person tried it, and it stripped the gears immediately (drag car). Stripped gears are one of many ways a motor can end up free spinning on track, and throw armature windings. 

 

"What are the raceways and who are the racers where this motor is still be used multiple times a week and winning consistently."

-I don't want to name any names directly outside of Bill Pinch here in Cleveland TN. I offered to sponsor a guy that passed on the offer, he said he does 8-10 big races per year, last time I heard from him he won (within the last month, and again, he hasn't acquired any new motors in MONTHS, but the win was within the last few weeks. I could name drop here but I'm just not gonna It's not in good taste on the forum. Let's just say I had a question about exactly how brakes work as in voltages applied to the circuit etc. I had a detailed explanation from a major controller manufacturer within about an hour. My mechanic/builder is Bill Fuqua in Illinois, we honestly just keep wing cars in circulation between here, IL, and Florida (where Mr. Fuqua is right now). At the track he spends his days in FL. From what I understand (I intend to visit personally next year), most of the locals at that track know my motors well, and several people swear by them. All I know, and all that matters to me is that there are people who like my motors. 

 

"You seem to imply there are motors out there that will not wear out."

We both know this is impossible. I know there are MOAM motors in the wild with 40+ races on high speed wing car tracks, and still being raced multiple times per week. They absolutely do fail/wear out. However, one of the associates mentioned above ended up with a moam that actually failed at the front bushing, with brushes still well intact. This was after dozens of races on the motor. The most common failure is the one that's inevitable, brushes wearing out. Every motor will fail somewhere at some point. I'm simply stating that life-span seems to be as good, or better than the primary two motors on the market in the same class (Supra and Terminator). 

 

I AM having some potential issues on high voltage king tracks as I said in the first post. I have more testing to do, and there is a track about an hour away, nice king track at 14.2v. Right now I can only conclude that you are VERY limited on gear ratio at that voltage. I have a couple of options on the table, and I am exploring all of them. However, this is an issue that has popped up on TWO tracks, the king closest to me, and one in North Carolina. I sent some samples to california to test on a 14.3v track. I need to follow up with them, but I suspect they will tell me the same thing I've already discovered. I let the motors trickle out because of this. I will be doing an initial release of the next version to make sure there aren't any major issues. Selling 10 motors and getting ANY negative feedback that comes is honestly necissary right now. There was one guy who bought a MOAM, and the only track he had access too was a king track at a higher voltage, and he couldn't find suitable gearing to keep the motor from burning up. Based on sheer numbers, there have to be MOAMS running at 14v and above that I do not know about. The only walk away I had was that a 13 tooth pinion on a 37 spur burns motors up in about 10 laps. The motor needs to turn faster to move air through the case, relying on the torque of the motor that much causes too much heat in the armature when you are in a high voltage range. I moved to a 12 tooth pinion, and the car ran like a dream. I let everyone at the track that wanted to play with it do so..... I'm always happy to get all the feedback I can from my motors. 

 

I will happily post here when I get the newest most upgraded MOAM motor so far. They will be listed on ebay but if you wish to make a larger purchase, please contact me directly and I will split the money that is saved with you.


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Jonathan Anderson

#31 MSwiss

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Posted 26 December 2022 - 10:47 AM

I don't believe anyone has gotten 40+ wing car races on a high speed King.

I'm also very skeptical about your 30V claim.

Maybe on an extremely short track(less than an eighth mile) with the amperage setting set low, and skinny wiring.

With reasonable amperage and wiring, no way.

I've seen too many fast FK motors lose brushes, blow off brush arms, (I'm not sure if they are breaking or popping like a fuse) on a strong 16.4V.

After I posted yesterday, I went back through this thread.

I had forgotten the G7 motor comment you made.

You know very well, yours, or any other FK motor, won't compete with a G7.

Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 692 Citadel Drive, Westmont, Illinois 60559


#32 Phil Smith

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Posted 26 December 2022 - 09:02 PM

I apologize for my bluntness, but this all sounds like BS to me. JK, ProSlot and Mike have been selling them forever. You don't have any special knowledge about toothbrush motors and suppliers that they don't already have. A lot of it is just getting lucky or unlucky. Sometimes you get good batches, (like Mike is currently getting) and sometimes you don't. Who knows when you're dealing with China.

 

And maybe you did get lucky, although almost everyone here has never heard of them. Which adds to my BS sense tingling.


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#33 jamfanwp

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Posted 29 December 2022 - 08:58 AM

"I don't believe anyone has gotten 40+ wing car races on a high speed King.

I'm also very skeptical about your 30V claim.

Maybe on an extremely short track(less than an eighth mile) with the amperage setting set low, and skinny wiring.

With reasonable amperage and wiring, no way.

I've seen too many fast FK motors lose brushes, blow off brush arms, (I'm not sure if they are breaking or popping like a fuse) on a strong 16.4V.

After I posted yesterday, I went back through this thread.

I had forgotten the G7 motor comment you made.

You know very well, yours, or any other FK motor, won't compete with a G7."

 

"I apologize for my bluntness, but this all sounds like BS to me. JK, ProSlot and Mike have been selling them forever. You don't have any special knowledge about toothbrush motors and suppliers that they don't already have. A lot of it is just getting lucky or unlucky. Sometimes you get good batches, (like Mike is currently getting) and sometimes you don't. Who knows when you're dealing with China.

 

And maybe you did get lucky, although almost everyone here has never heard of them. Which adds to my BS sense tingling."

 

I know EVERYONE will at least read the first sentence of this reply, so the most important thing I have to say is that these two posts exemplify why slot car racing stays on the verge of death as a sport or hobby. The next time you wonder why it's so hard to keep a track open, think of this bs right here. Any industry that refuses to evolve does like anything else in existence does. It ceases to exist. 

 

Now that we have gotten that out of the way, let me set the record straight as to my intentions.

MSwiss: I was told before I addressed this post that you essentially talk trash about ANY motor that rises to the surface on this forum. Understandably if an individual has a vested interest in selling motors or motor parts, as you do..... I didn't come here to argue with you about what MOAM's are capable of. I came here to answer the original question, as well as adding another avenue for people to contact me with motor questions.... Not to debate with you about what feedback I am getting from people who have my motors in their cars, and are racing them regularly. I'll believe the people asking me when I can get them more motors.... That's pretty much the nicest way I can come up with to tell you I do not care.

 

Paul Smith: Did you ever consider that in reality they ceased to be "toothbrush" motors once someone explained to the manufacturer that a new use had been found for their motors with slightly different design parameters. I probably know more about the sourcing stuff from China side of things than the motor design side of things. That's why I have a team, as well as all the open lines of communication with customers that I can have. If you buy one of my motors, and it fries, I will want to know why. I've paid to have motors sent back to me that had issues, along with immediately sending a replacement. I haven't had any complaint from someone using MOAM for drag racing to date. I went into this expecting people to find tons of problems with MOAM's, but that has not been the case....


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Jonathan Anderson

#34 Phil Smith

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Posted 29 December 2022 - 10:34 AM

 

I know EVERYONE will at least read the first sentence of this reply, so the most important thing I have to say is that these two posts exemplify why slot car racing stays on the verge of death as a sport or hobby. The next time you wonder why it's so hard to keep a track open, think of this bs right here. Any industry that refuses to evolve does like anything else in existence does. It ceases to exist.

 

Yes, dismiss both of those posts as just haters. This is a common tactic. You used it to dismiss Mike's comments as well. Works well when you don't have legitimate answers.

 

 

I probably know more about the sourcing stuff from China side of things than the motor design side of things. That's why I have a team, as well as all the open lines of communication with customers that I can have.

 

OK, so you have a team working on it. You sound like a big operation. That sounds interesting. Can you tell us more?


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#35 MSwiss

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Posted 29 December 2022 - 12:36 PM

Now that we have gotten that out of the way, let me set the record straight as to my intentions.

MSwiss: I was told before I addressed this post that you essentially talk trash about ANY motor that rises to the surface on this forum. Understandably if an individual has a vested interest in selling motors or motor parts, as you do..... I didn't come here to argue with you about what MOAM's are capable of. I came here to answer the original question, as well as adding another avenue for people to contact me with motor questions.... Not to debate with you about what feedback I am getting from people who have my motors in their cars, and are racing them regularly. I'll believe the people asking me when I can get them more motors.... That's pretty much the nicest way I can come up with to tell you I do not care....

Mr. MOAM,

Are you kidding?

 

I seldom talk about competitors motors, but when when I do, it pertains to my experiences at my 17+ year old raceway and how it impacts my business.

 

Here's the latest of the infrequent times I offer my insight ;

 

http://slotblog.net/...ll-motor/page-2

 

Go to post #36 or any other of my posts in that thread and tell me how I'm trash talking the PS9000?

 

You have the chutzpah to make that claim after you post the below:

 

Not scientific, but there was one gentleman who used a method of vibration testing with a cup of water sitting on the motor, and the MOAM was smoother than several balanced motors, decisively more smooth than a Pheonix Supra, or any other can motors. Feedback has been consistant that this motor is faster and more powerful than the Pheonix Supra.

 

You are here not to debate the feedback you get from unnamed racers?

 

You make outrageous performance claims on Ebay and here on Slotblog, and can't substantiate them , so you just change the the subject to (unnamed) people asking when they can get more motors.

 

Let's say I list an aftermarket exhaust system for Fiesta ST's, and I state "Think a $25K sport hatchback competing with a $200-$300K exotic Lamborghini or Ferrari."

 

And then when I get called out  on my claim on a FiST forum, instead of explaining how or offering  some sort of tangible proof, I just add "by the way, (unnamed) users of my exhaust have experienced getting 120 MPG, instead of the normal 17-25 MPG.

 

And then just to top it off, I claim according to an unnamed customer, my exhaust has better construction than any other exhaust on the market, and mention one of those inferior constructed exhausts by the product name.

 

And then when I get called out on those additional claims, I blow it off with a "I'm not here to debate. All that matters to me is that other (unnamed) people want to buy my exhaust".

 

If I did all the above, making outrageous claims, totally unsubstantiated, only referencing unnamed sources, and never offering a shred of proof they were accurate, that would make me, "Mike Swiss, Fiesta exhaust merchant", a certified huckster.


Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 692 Citadel Drive, Westmont, Illinois 60559


#36 elvis44102

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Posted 29 December 2022 - 09:10 PM

i have been a member of this forum for several years, checking in a dozen times or so a week, nobody "trash talks" anything around here, for one the moderator would not stand for it


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John Wisneski

#37 Bags

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Posted 30 December 2022 - 08:23 AM

Don’t feel bad about Swiss trashing stuff he does it all the time.

 

He had fun trying to debunk brushless motor technology too.  :D


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Tom Bagley

#38 Samiam

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Posted 30 December 2022 - 08:58 AM

Funny how a thread discussing Swiss' weighted guides got locked up pronto !! But you can openly "discuss" anything else here. Either open the weighted guide thread or keep your garbage talk to yourself Mike.


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#39 MSwiss

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Posted 30 December 2022 - 11:27 AM

No, Sam, it did not get locked up "pronto".

It got locked after 4 days and 78 posts, 5 of them from you, and a direct request from Jason Holmes, "So can we close this Asinine Thread now please".

Anyway, despite you incorrectly portraying what happened 4 1/2 years ago, I reopened it so you can burn off some of your aggression towards me.

Happy New Year.

http://slotblog.net/...e-4#entry836126

20221230_103707.jpg


Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 692 Citadel Drive, Westmont, Illinois 60559


#40 Phil Smith

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Posted 30 December 2022 - 12:51 PM

In fairness to Mike, I think he's gotten surprisingly agreeable in his old age. I'm older than he is. It hasn't kicked in yet for me. :laugh2:


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#41 Phil Smith

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Posted 30 December 2022 - 12:56 PM

Don’t feel bad about Swiss trashing stuff he does it all the time.

 

He had fun trying to debunk brushless motor technology too.  :D

 

I don't think he tried. I think he did.

 

But since then there have been improvements in the Talon 25 software. I think almost for certain it will work well for road cars now, and I'll let you know about drag cars as I'm going to build one to test.


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#42 MSwiss

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Posted 30 December 2022 - 01:25 PM

Correct, Phil.

The original presentation of brushless, with the Talon, big start up lag, and using huge, fairly expensive, 40G inrunner motors with magnets stuck on them, was not good.

Tom posting that video at Trains and Lanes, of a poor performing road course car, was not a positive advertisement for brushless.

If Tom was on FB, he would see my positive posts referencing the exploits of Richard Mack, using the ESC the Canadian guy designed, and cheap, lightweight outrunner motors.

Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 692 Citadel Drive, Westmont, Illinois 60559


#43 Phil Smith

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Posted 30 December 2022 - 02:28 PM

Tom gets credit for further building and testing of Martin Shaffers' original car design. Martin gets more credit than anyone for hacking the Talon 25 to work with slot cars.
 
And to be fair to Tom, without his tireless promotion of brushless, there wouldn't be brushless today. So you have to admit that Tom has done more for brushless than anyone.
 

 
Tom posting that video at Trains and Lanes, of a poor performing road course car, was not a positive advertisement for brushless.

 
And this type of thing is where you screwed up, Tom. You post this, promote the heck out of it, and deny any short comings that people point out. You do this on a forum full of world class road course guys. it's obvious to everyone here that you know nothing about road course cars. The few that bothered to try to correct you, you dismissed them as not knowing what they're talking about. This did not help your credibility.
 
And to this day, you deny the T-25 lag, which is absurd.
 
Anyway, you could have handled all of this differently and your standing the community would be very different today.
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#44 MSwiss

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Posted 30 December 2022 - 02:56 PM

Phil,
I think Tom was hoping for free advertising on Slotblog, to sell the flashed Talon's, without any blowback.

Since you seem to want to document the history of brushless, where does the Canadian guy come in, that came up with the lagless(or low lag?) ESC, Mack and Bob Budge use?

Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 692 Citadel Drive, Westmont, Illinois 60559


#45 Phil Smith

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Posted 30 December 2022 - 03:45 PM

I don't know, Mike. I just looked and this is the earliest mention of the Bob Budge ESC that I can find.

 

https://www.rcgroups...er#post47823413

 

That is certainly a big deal for the Eurosport guys, but I don't think many of the US road course guys are interested in brushless. And I don't see that changing.

 

The US drag car guys are a different story. They seem very interested in it.


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#46 Bags

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Posted 30 December 2022 - 05:53 PM

Oh let’s get all up in arms at what Tom did!

 

I am a DRAG racer not a roundy roundy racer, that is correct.

On a whim I put a big ole huge inrunner motor in an old Flexi type chassis and let my friend at Trains and Lanes run it around the track there.

That was the 1st brushless road car that I know of in the USA. Yes it wasn’t the best ,but ya gotta start somewhere.

 

Martin Shaffer is the one who made it all possible, that is correct. 
I have a very good friendship with him because of brushless technology. Not a bad thing as far as I’m concerned.

 

Im not trying to be “ranked for a standing in a brushless community” the testing and tuning I have done to date speaks for itself.

I build the cars make videos of them, send videos to Martin and he produces the YouTube channel content for anyone to view as information.

 

Thank you both Mike and Mr. Smith for the kudos!

 

Wishing you a Happy New Year!


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#47 jimht

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Posted 30 December 2022 - 06:23 PM

Mike, Phil:

You guys want to get a room?

 

Anywaaaay...So someone new decides to let China make some more slot car motors and unfortunately picks a kind of cheesy (but original!) name for his product...then to clarify some questions he comes here, and conversationally explains what he's doing and why. 

 

I doubt that anyone has produced a huge number of anything without beginning with low volume and experimentation.

 

Note that probably 99%+ of all the slot car motors ever made have come from China and Japan.

 

Low price and high volume are their game and all the American manufacturers have been able to do is charge more for making "better" stuff at an unprofitable low volume, well duh.

 

This is a discussion forum, not an inquisition, right?

 

The results of any of these experiments in hobby capitalism will be determined by the market, whether FK or brushless, and while conversations about them are de rigueur, they shuld be conversational not interrogatory.

 

BTW, there are ~250 Budge ESCs in the wild at 60 Euros each, but the same sort of thing mass produced for the RC market is $15...and letting the Chinese make a few thousand of these will be no different from letting them make a few thousand FKs. All it will take is someone optimistic enough to spend the money.

30 years ago I saw the value of the Pla-fit motor but it was Todd Radke that made it happen, eventually, and he got hammered unmercifully for his vision.

 

And that's all folks!


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#48 MSwiss

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Posted 30 December 2022 - 06:49 PM

Jim,

Nothing wrong with what he is doing........except statements like;
Not scientific, but there was one gentleman who used a method of vibration testing with a cup of water sitting on the motor, and the MOAM was smoother than several balanced motors, decisively more smooth than a Pheonix Supra, or any other can motors. Feedback has been consistant that this motor is faster and more powerful than the Pheonix Supra.

 

Ebay only seller coming on Slotblog, for free advertisement, declaring supremacy, citing an unnamed source,  over a banner advertiser, who does sell through normal distributor channels.

 

To quote my wife, this is "no bueno".

 

If you disagree with my assessment, feel free to contact Cheater to get his opinion of the matter.

 

And you know very well claiming an FK motor can compete with a G7 motor is hucksterism in the extreme.

 

IOW, there is zero chance an FK motor of any brand can produce one 1.6 King track lap, let alone multiple ones, to compete with one in a race.


Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 692 Citadel Drive, Westmont, Illinois 60559


#49 jimht

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Posted 30 December 2022 - 07:05 PM

Mike, you aren't "moderating" anything as far as I can see, all you are doing is coming up with stuff "you" don't like and complaining about it.

 

Ban him, delete his posts, take him aside and straighten him out, whatever...just don't do what you are doing, which is using the platform to attack another slot car racer.

 

BTW, what are "normal" channels any more, when DIstributors allow short discounts and refuse to carry reputable manufacturers for personal reasons?


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#50 MSwiss

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Posted 30 December 2022 - 07:13 PM

I wasn't moderating anything.

 

I was posting as a raceway owner, a manufacturer, and a person that knows enough about slot racing, that "fast" FK motors don't run like G7's and last 40 races.

 

Regardless, contact Cheater with your displeasure.

 

If he wants me to just delete MOAM posts, I find preposterous, or are attacking another company's product, citing anonymous sources, I'll be happy to do that.


Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 692 Citadel Drive, Westmont, Illinois 60559






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