475 replies to this topic

[Gator Bob]

What kind of arms will be allowed?

Open rule.

How about a 15t/24w ?

[MantaRay]

not hot enough

[Jairus]

Arm winding is up to the entrant. No limit as Bob says, but we are limited to "Ceramic magnets" and 1970 technology.

Think of yourself standing at the racetrack parts wall picking out the best that money could buy in 1970 for the ultimate deep-dish Choti build and go from there. Okay?
No exotic materials in the construction like carbon fiber or magnesium please. Let's do this in the spirit of the era with as few rules as possible.

[fxgeorge]

I've been following this thread, it's the only "retro" class I could possibly get interested in because of my background in the East Bay race scene. If you were to start a class, I would be really strict about staying with a chassis rule that keeps it like an U-Go chassis. Something to the effect of "inline bracket, two rails only to guide tongue. Only two cross members with pin tube." I.e., no perimeter chassis or pollution from modern designs (keep the genie in the bottle please). Motors look available at Electric Dreams, I'd use this ONLY: http://www.electricd...tor-p-1948.html Allow rewinding. I'd pull the arm, chop off the wire, rewind it. This was the motor we used a lot at A Street. Choti body, one air dam may be taped to side of body, 2-1/2" maximum height. Has to be 1/8" axle, Cox crown gear. This spec would go bloody fast down the main chute, watch out for the bank though!!! Set your sensitivity low for the infield too....

[havlicek]

I'm thinking more and more that I might buck the Green Can trend here and go backwards in time a bit for giggles, using some sort of Mabuchi 16D. I think I have an Orange Picker end bell around here (unless I put it on someone else's motor???) and a Champion single oval hole can would be a good way to go can drive. A set of Champion magnets to top it off should make a good (if not race winning) setup. I better start digging around in the man cave and see what's what.

-john

[32Deuce]

I've been following this thread, it's the only "retro" class I could possibly get interested in because of my background in the East Bay race scene. If you were to start a class, I would be really strict about staying with a chassis rule that keeps it like an U-Go chassis. Something to the effect of "inline bracket, two rails only to guide tongue. Only two cross members with pin tube." I.e., no perimeter chassis or pollution from modern designs (keep the genie in the bottle please). Motors look available at Electric Dreams, I'd use this ONLY: http://www.electricd...tor-p-1948.html Allow rewinding. I'd pull the arm, chop off the wire, rewind it. This was the motor we used a lot at A Street. Choti body, one air dam may be taped to side of body, 2-1/2" maximum height. Has to be 1/8" axle, Cox crown gear. This spec would go bloody fast down the main chute, watch out for the bank though!!! Set your sensitivity low for the infield too....

Too many rules, this is a "THINGIE" race!

[Jairus]

John, I have some Champion cans here just like that if you need.

[JohnnySlotcar]

Jairus, if your test car gets too hot, you will be burning a mule on the track!!!!

[Edo]

Too many rules, this is a "THINGIE" race!

On the contrary, Dear 32!

I find Mr. Russell's suggestion extremely simple and brilliant! I really like the minimalism of those U-Go chassis and George's chassis concept derived from them.

And what I really really like is this sentence he wrote " no perimeter chassis or pollution from modern designs (keep the genie in the bottle please)"

If you ask me we've seen, for example, enough D3 kind of designs since the very beginning of the Thingie Proxy race, even in the first one in 2006.

But then, off course, We're the Ones that go by the motto: "Vintage or Death"!

[fxgeorge]

Too many rules, this is a "THINGIE" race!

This is where "retro" programs confuse me. Too few rules....too many rules....which is it? Most of your programs have a lot of rules in order to attempt to recreate cars from the 60s and 70s...recreate the past, try to freeze-dry the old designs. In doing so, if you don't make enough rules, you end up with guys building cars that have all kinds of design cues from today's cars, little hidden Horkyisms and JK Productsisms and Kofordisms morphed into chassis that are supposed to be from the old days. If you make too many rules, it only makes it more fun to try to break the rules with abovementioned modern technologies.

Take a eurosport racer like myself and give me access to 2025 eurosport technology....of course I'll use it!!! But, of course that's impossible.

The Ugo chassis was a very good example of the true East Bay Speed Thingy. Minimal....lightweight....crazy fast....that was the whole idea. It was a lot about your winding capabilities. I only remember FT16 motors where you would screw the endbell to the rear bracket. That's why the Russkit motor would be a good one to use. How much more simple could it be? The combination I outlined is so much different from all the ideas expressed which are mostly based on stuff you guys already run. In the East Bay, we just didn't run that big heavy stuff, no jail doors, no perimeters for goodness sakes. I thought you might like try running something a bit different. Both Glenn and I can attest that the less chassis was the fastest back in the day.

[fxgeorge]

On the contrary, Dear 32!

I find Mr. Russell's suggestion extremely simple and brilliant! I really like the minimalism of those U-Go chassis and George's chassis concept derived from them.

And what I really really like is this sentence he wrote " no perimeter chassis or pollution from modern designs (keep the genie in the bottle please)"

If you ask me we've seen, for example, enough D3 kind of designs since the very beginning of the Thingie Proxy race, even in the first one in 2006.

But then, off course, We're the Ones that go by the motto: "Vintage or Death"!

Thanks for the affirmation of my idea, I think you posted it just as I was writing my last reply!!! Haaa haaaa haaaaaa.

[don.siegel]

FX, were you guys aware of the Thingie racers at The Groove in Detroit? I believe they ran more perimeter type chassis (and also Dynamic based iso designs), but their tracks were probably a bit shorter and not as banked as in NorCal).

Actually, I remember a couple of our Chicago area racers running chassis very similar to the U-Go models, with just two piano wire rails, a fixed guide mount and very wide blue tires in the rear!

I like that approach too, in the NorCal Thingie spirit!

Don

[tjsguns]

Don.
I did race Thingies at the Groove in Det. (Royal Oak to be exact) back in the 60's and believe me you saw EVERY type of chassis design imaginable there.....including the u-go type, perimeter type, and TONS of Dynamic based stuff.
Basically it was "Run what ya Brung!"

[don.siegel]

And what were your tracks like Tom - also ran the gamut? From the couple photos I've seen of the NorCal tracks, seems they were almost universally very long and very high speed (ie, 300ft, 60° banking, etc.). We've seen photos of some of the Shindoda cars, but now that I think of it, never really got a good glance at the Detroit tracks.

Don

[havlicek]

John, I have some Champion cans here just like that if you need.

Hi Jairus and thanks mucho. I have lots of the cans, but it was the orange picker end bell I was looking for...and I found one that should clean up fine. I also have a pair of Champion Yellow Dots I have big plans for this motor now that the pieces are there!

-john

[slotcarone]

Funny thing is with all this talk about racing what we raced in the mid sixties everyone seems to be alright with electronic controllers!!!! Bring on the resistors!!!!

[Jairus]

Funny you should suggest that Mike. I brought this very fact up a while back, that we SHOULD have a vintage meet and run 1968 rules, 1968 tech and resistor controllers! I love the idea for a single meet.

But a Proxy race?

So... after reading all the posts it seems we are divided a bit. Is the consensus that no parameter frames be allowed? (I hate adding rules.) I feel we need to keep the motor option open to all that were available circa 1970 because that was the premiss of this proxy in the very beginning. But if everyone is willing to stay with no more than one rail per side, then I will go with that. But the truth is... parameter frames, floppy pans and most of the modern slot car tech got it's start right about 1968 to 1970. Some of the entries in the current proxy may look like D3 cars but the technology has always been with us. It's just more mainstream now and therefore more apparent and relatable to D3. Remember the puzzle pan chassis?

So...
The subject on the table is 'Parameter frames'. Allow or disallow.
If disallowed then we will be limited to two central rails front to back, one motor/axle bracket and one guide tongue with body tubes.

All else stays as it was.
I await the masses response.

[havlicek]

The answer is easy Jairus. No one can say with any degree of certainty that no one built a chassis with more than a single piece of wire (rail) at that time. In fact, since it was a "run-what-you-brung" thing, it's more likely than not there were at least some cars like that then. They may not have looked exactly like the perimeter chassis we think of today (or they may have in some cases), but there were no doubt all kinds of crazy things being done. If you want it to be strictly a "U-Go" knockoff event, the whole concept of "anything goes"...is gone. I don't know what year Sandy Gross' "Puzzle Pan" was, but that was some crazy-cool engineering. No one can say they wouldn't have let that chassis in a race back then Bottom line is that any more than the barest minimum number of rules defeats the purpose.

-john

[MSwiss]

I agree with John.

Unless you are going with a 'Frisco style only event, I can't see limiting the chassis design.

And then if you limit the chassis design, how can you let guys make their own bodies?

There were all kinds of different chassis built back then.
The hottest guy at our local track had a chassis built from copper sheet.

[Gator Bob]

So...
The subject on the table is 'Parameter frames'. Allow or disallow.
If disallowed then we will be limited to two central rails front to back, one motor/axle bracket and one guide tongue with body tubes.

All else stays as it was.
I await the masses response.

Allow.<sup>*



*</sup> The bodies will need more support then the two pintubes crossing the main rails would provide.

[Edo]

So gentlemen

why not a a Frisco style U-Go kind of chassis (à la fxgeorge suggestion) VS a Detroit perimeter style chassis race?

And no slabs of brass nowhere to be seen.

Races on fast tracks (Kings), all out motors (preferably rewound 16 D M'buchis).

Choties (with U-Go/derived chassis) vs Shinodas (with perimeters) bodies battling it out.

That would be swell innit? Aaand rather new for a Thingie Proxy!

E

PS Mind you I like jaildoors, perimeters, ugos, anything from back then but George's suggestion is really extremely interesting and different.

IMO

[havlicek]

There were all kinds of different chassis built back then.
The hottest guy at our local track had a chassis built from copper sheet.

Bingo! Mike just proved what I had thought. A "U-Go" only event would NOT represent either the races or even just the spirit of the time.

-john

[tjsguns]

And what were your tracks like Tom - also ran the gamut? From the couple photos I've seen of the NorCal tracks, seems they were almost universally very long and very high speed (ie, 300ft, 60° banking, etc.). We've seen photos of some of the Shindoda cars, but now that I think of it, never really got a good glance at the Detroit tracks.Don

Yes Don, The tracks also ran the gamut. From what we called " Road Race" type stuff (kinda short with a lot of non-banked turns and "s"'s) to 350 ft plus straights w/ 10ft high 60 degree banks. The Groove, Shores Raceway, The GrandPrix all the 'cool" place were very differen't from one another but all had the " DEEETROIT" thingie thing goin on! Too bad I don't think many track pics survive

[Jairus]

Edo, battle of the Shinodas and Chotis huh? I don't think it would be much of a race if only run on two King tracks at 14v. Choti's will win all the time with the aero advantage. Frankly I believe the cars we are planning in this thread will out-run all of the proxy entries of the past 5 races!
But... we could open up the body limit to any body as long as it is a thingie. That would allow you and george to build whatever you want.
Heck, someone COULD bring a slab car to the race if they wanted.... bit like bringing a knife to a gun fight, but whatever!

Means ultimately that there be fewer rules.

[32Deuce]

This is where "retro" programs confuse me. Too few rules....too many rules....which is it? Most of your programs have a lot of rules in order to attempt to recreate cars from the 60s and 70s...recreate the past, try to freeze-dry the old designs. In doing so, if you don't make enough rules, you end up with guys building cars that have all kinds of design cues from today's cars, little hidden Horkyisms and JK Productsisms and Kofordisms morphed into chassis that are supposed to be from the old days. If you make too many rules, it only makes it more fun to try to break the rules with abovementioned modern technologies.

Well, my comments were mostly in jest but, still to make the point Swiss & others have made, the fewer rules the better. That's the basis for "Thingie" racing. If you want a rule for every aspect of a car, get into a "scale" race. How can you police the proposed chassis rules? Nobody really seems to know for sure (with documentation) just what exactly was run back then. I think limiting the components themselves to 1970 and earlier takes care of a lot of problems and prevents more rules but, it seems limiting the style of chassis would be just a matter of opinion as to whether or not it is vintage and kind of kills the creativity that is so much a part of building a Thingie. Like it or not, we are not in the 60's anymore and with what we all know now, some of the modern era is still going to leak into any build, regardless. Did most guys use Jigs back then? Silver solder? Fancy soldering stations? What kind of rubber was available and are we going to stick with that? Will we all put our finished chassis in a tumbler and scrub & polish them until they look like chrome? Butyrate bodies? ....Hell no!!! Just sayin'