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Posting Leader
Posted 18 July 2013 - 05:30 PM
OCD Rewinder
Posted 18 July 2013 - 05:51 PM
As it is such a big part of building a slot car, the whole package, wind & build the motor then build & run the car it goes in . Can't wait
I dig your enthusiasm Paul, but sadly, it hasn't been considered part of building a slot car for many decades. Even in the '60's, the pro guys weren't winding arms themselves as far as I can tell. That was (at least mostly) for the geeky enthusiast who didn't mind the acrid smell of melted end bells. Still, I consider anyone who will at least give winding a fair try a goforit kinda guy. Heck, before long, building a chassis and hand-painting a body will be only fond memories of a bygone era.
-john
Age scrubs away speed!
Posted 18 July 2013 - 10:11 PM
In the early 70's, it was popular to run 27/28 double winds on tracks with low power or power packs. Using the three wire gauge difference, these would equate to a 24 1/2 ga. arm. In the day, we always heard there was a two wire gauge difference for double winds. I don't know where the truth lies, but most 27/28 arms I ran were fast & smooth, yet didn't have the power of a 25. 25 gauge arms were my favorite to run for several reasons. Triple & quad winds were nearly nonexistant. A popular wind for hotter powered tracks was the 26/27. 
Mid-Pack Racer
Posted 18 July 2013 - 10:11 PM
Stay away from messing with double winds. They are a pain, as John mentioned, as well as a great waste of time and effort. I found this out back in the early 1980's and simply stopped winding doubles after my singles won their first major race.
There is nothing a double wind can do that a single cannot. There are many reasons to stay away from doubles. Poor welding, tough to balance, hard to wind neatly and very difficult to keep together, at extreme RPM, in higher classes of racing. From pole to pole, their magnetic characteristics do not match as well as single winds. From a mechanical standpoint, they are an object just waiting to self destruct, From a construction point of view, they are difficult and time consuming, for even the most skilled winders, to assemble.
While possibly not true, I have always felt that doubles run hotter than singles. They are simply not desirable, nor are they needed, with the availability of half sized wire gauges.
Do not waste your time, unless you are rebuilding or replicating a vintage armature, which calls for a different mindset than creating a racing armature. This would be the only reason to wind a double. There is no other.
Triples in slot racing? So wrong it's a joke!
Dan Miller
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OCD Rewinder
Posted 19 July 2013 - 07:02 AM
...what Dan said. As for triples, I've done one in the last 4 or 5 years and I couldn't even measure the resistance of that arm with the meter I was using then. I don't remember what I did with it, but the effort (considerable) was stupid.
-john
Posting Leader
Posted 19 July 2013 - 07:12 AM
will concentrate on getting singles all done right
Race Leader
Posted 19 July 2013 - 08:36 AM
Posting Leader
Posted 19 July 2013 - 09:17 AM
Mid-Pack Racer
Posted 19 July 2013 - 12:20 PM
Marty,
Please notice that I mentioned reliability, as a main reason, to go with single winds.
Eliminate the R/C application as they do not have anywhere near our RPM range, nor do they run for any length of time, compared to a slot armature. Reliability of wire wound R/C armatures was never an issue. I know as I wound R/C armatures, on my own R/C armature blank, that won US National titles. They were all singles and still managed to beat out the overwhelming number of doubles and triples. My singles have held track records on the three fastest ovals in the USA.
By the way, I have wound single 22 Slot arms in the past and found that they worked just fine. Not today though, as our RPM range is so much higher now. Big single wire arms have no place in Slot racing anymore.
Think your triples are reliable? Put one on a King track and run 32 minutes, in a One Motor Open race, with one of them. Get back to me with your results.
Inductance readings? I have never bothered with them ever. I see no point to it, in the upper classes of hand wound armatures, that I deal with. Total waste of time. The number of turns, of certain wires sizes, means so much more than inductance readings.
You may well be very correct about Drag racers using triple winds. I imagine, that maybe about all five of them, World wide, capable of running .430 second passes, could well be running triples. How influential is that in the larger scheme of things?
We both know that the questions and comments were directed at circuit racing use of armatures and not Drag racing.
Dan Miller
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Grand Champion Poster
Posted 19 July 2013 - 12:32 PM
Is the 'skin effect' taken into consideration with multi-winds as it pertains to the cleanliness of the power source?
Mid-Pack Racer
Posted 19 July 2013 - 02:25 PM
Bob,
I rank the "skin effect" right down there with inductance readings. Information that cannot be applied, from a practical standpoint, is useless.
Better you try to develop other aspects of armatures rather than fritter away time on irrelevant approaches.
Premium lamination material. Quality insulation on your wire. High temperature serviceable epoxy, that will hold your arms together and take the heat. Mechanically sound, single wire winds that stay put and balance well with easy effort. Strong, straight shafts that do not flex at high RPM. Proper welding of the wire to the commutator tabs. Extra care in cleanliness while making armatures. All these things come well before theory.
On paper, some theory seems to be relevant. In practice, not so much. Those that spout theory, suggesting they know what they are talking about, simply make me shake my head. They gloss over the practical, because they are not capable of executing it.
We are not trying to make Mars Rover wheel drive motors here. Efficiency, at an extreme level, is not needed. We are trying to go well beyond 150,000 RPM and keep it together, for a relatively short duration of time. We have buckets of power to play with, often too much, which make me ask, why worry about efficiency?
Shovel the greatest proportion of theory right out the door. Then try to make your armature accurate and robust enough to stay together under duress. If it can do that, it will perform and it will still be there when the power goes off.
Guys who pump theory do not seem to be making any race winning armatures. They just expound useless information, that really can't be applied, to the task at hand. The limited number of armature manufacturers, that really do do know their technical theory stuff, are too busy trying to hold things together, rather than apply theory over practicality.
DC armature theory is fine, for certain applications, when it comes to efficiency. We don't care. We have an excess of power. Why jerk yourself around, playing a useless numbers game, on paper? Make the damned armature and put it on the track. Learn a few hard lessons. Realize then that theory means diddle and practicality rules big time.
Dan Miller
Race Leader
Posted 19 July 2013 - 03:07 PM
Dan the only thing we disagree on is that you say never and I think sometimes, in a few select situations.
None of this is useful and that wasn't the gentlemen's question. The math was, which isn't a theory, which I answered, so let's leave it at that, okay? No need to get all personal and upset over it.
Grand Champion Poster
Posted 19 July 2013 - 03:35 PM
Bob,
I rank the "skin effect" right down there with inductance readings. Information that cannot be applied, from a practical standpoint, is useless.
Better you try to develop other aspects of armatures rather than fritter away time on irrelevant approaches.
Premium lamination material. Quality insulation on your wire. High temperature serviceable epoxy, that will hold your arms together and take the heat. Mechanically sound, single wire winds that stay put and balance well with easy effort. Strong, straight shafts that do not flex at high RPM. Proper welding of the wire to the commutator tabs. Extra care in cleanliness while making armatures. All these things come well before theory.
On paper, some theory seems to be relevant. In practice, not so much. Those that spout theory, suggesting they know what they are talking about, simply make me shake my head. They gloss over the practical, because they are not capable of executing it.
We are not trying to make Mars Rover wheel drive motors here. Efficiency, at an extreme level, is not needed. We are trying to go well beyond 150,000 RPM and keep it together, for a relatively short duration of time. We have buckets of power to play with, often too much, which make me ask, why worry about efficiency?
Shovel the greatest proportion of theory right out the door. Then try to make your armature accurate and robust enough to stay together under duress. If it can do that, it will perform and it will still be there when the power goes off.
Guys who pump theory do not seem to be making any race winning armatures. They just expound useless information, that really can't be applied, to the task at hand. The limited number of armature manufacturers, that really do do know their technical theory stuff, are too busy trying to hold things together, rather than apply theory over practicality.
DC armature theory is fine, for certain applications, when it comes to efficiency. We don't care. We have an excess of power. Why jerk yourself around, playing a useless numbers game, on paper? Make the damned armature and put it on the track. Learn a few hard lessons. Realize then that theory means diddle and practicality rules big time.
Dan Miller
Dan,
I read all that long winded reply to promote how much of an expert you are at being a winder.
Then to my question ... the only answer I could come up with is "no you're not".
Bob Israelite
OCD Rewinder
Posted 19 July 2013 - 07:09 PM
There's a lot of pretty hairy physics involved with these things Bob, and these motors don't always act the way even someone who really understands the exceedingly complex theory would predict. I think that what this all really boils down to is, after trying about every imaginable combination of winds and wind patterns, what really counts is on-track performance. From what little I understand about skin effect (I have only an undergraduate science background...and that was a LOOOOONG time ago), I have a hard time myself imagining how digging in to that might be helpful. Dan comes from a "been there/done that" place (as opposed to me for example), and I see what he posted as saying...we know what works, and just doing that (making an electrically and mechanically sound and as precisely symetrical armature as possible) is where the real difficulty lies. There are probably very few "surprises" left...except for 5 poles 
-john
On The Lead Lap
Posted 19 July 2013 - 09:05 PM
Posting Leader
Posted 19 July 2013 - 11:42 PM
Dave Reed said:
Would someone step in here and please tell these keyboard experts who Dan Miller IS..There are maybe 2 or 3 people on this board that can tell you what winding arms is all about.. Dan Miller is the current Best at it.. What he says you can take to the Bank..
Post #13 of my thread
http://slotblog.net/...balancer-video/
To true John, its just cool being able to balance your own arms and bolt em up in a can and see improvements that you know you've done yourself
Oh I agree 100% Paul...and you're talking to someone who routinely prefers to do it himself, that's how I got into winding arms in the first place...both as a kid and again as an adult. BTW, I also tend to take whatever anyone says about all this with a huge grain of salt. On the other hand, Dan Miller has done it all...and I mean ALL to the point of producing world-class arms. He's really been through all of this stuff frontwards and backwards...inside and out, and is one of the few that I really listen to when he speaks.
-john
The tech sheet in my issue of SARN lists.
Semi-Pro
1.Dick DePaso
2.Timothy Borsetti
3.Greg Elner
4.Dan Camilleri
Rick Bennardo
"Professional Tinkerer"
Recently dubbed CLUELESS
scrgeo@comcast.net
R-Geo Products
Other info on Dan Miller: http://www.slotcarta...K-Arms-for-sale
PK Arms for sale
-Just got my order of PK arms from Dan Miller via Beuf. I will list what I have if you are interested in any let me know.
.250 stack
19-26 4
18-22.5 2
18-25 4
17-25 2
39-28 2
42-29 1
.300 stack
23-25 2
18-25.5 4
25-25.5 2
19-26 4
25-27 4
.350 stack
18-25 4
18-24.5 4
17-24.5 4
Price is $85.00 ea. I will pay shipping.
I also have 2 Valiko 8 magnet Eurosport motors. Motors have 300 stack length PK arms with 1.5mm shafts. Motors are brand new; $285.00 each complete.
Contact: Lou Pirro
Grand Prix Model Raceway
2265 1st Street
Schenectady, NY 12303
518-357-2596
e-mail: Red21dee@msn.com
Grand Champion Poster
Posted 20 July 2013 - 12:42 AM
I hear you John, your rational reply is appreciated.
ME, Putting things up to get people thinking about stuff. And some are. .. Like skin effect and how clean is someones 'buckets of power'.
No one ever said - Bob (or jerk yourself) ... That's dumb ..How the heck does skin effect even apply in DC?
Then I watch the insecure people (kids 
) get all wound up defending their turf and choosing sides.
Examples in this thread alone are:
Dan Miller - turf warrior 
- responds with - useless, fritter, spout, Mars Rover, shovel, pump theory, diddle, jerk yourself .... there is at least one put-down remark in every sentence. Dan if you were 'that' good you 'would' be building motors for the space industry and not antiquated, slotted and braided wood hobby .. with wings.
Dave Reed - side taker, half'a yes man 
- - responds with 'someone step in' (looking for more back-up) keyboard experts, maybe 2 or 3 people, take to the Bank (or the punch bowl).
Cheater - for some ... like ... unknown reason, might be a power trip thing, he did split the post off and he likes to follow me around correcting any 'mistakes'. 
See .. look 
my feelings are hurt.
What I write ... "no likey, no read-ie" I don't give a FS.
So men.... I'll spit through the wire, you can go wind it on you poles or get it all wrapped around your stacks. 
Grand Champion Poster
Posted 20 July 2013 - 12:51 AM
Some newer people to slot racing may not know that Dan Camilleri(4th place) is today known as Dan Miller, of PK arms.
name change ?
Dan Camilleri(4th place) is today known as Dan Miller,???
OCD Rewinder
Posted 20 July 2013 - 07:32 AM
I'm (I guess) kind of "old school" and believe that guys like Dan get respect because they've earned it. When I see work like his (or Rick T or Steve O'Keefe or Jairus or Noose or anyone else who does this stuff at such a high level), I not only listen to whatever nuggets they're willing to share, but I take their word more than about anyone's. In the case of armatures, I have (I hope) a bit more insight into what's going on that the average person and can appreciate what Dan says even more. That doesn't mean I still don't try things anyway; I still don't completely trust even people with a proven track record. There are two things I have seen repeatedly over the last several years that kind of make me scratch my head a little:
1)People who will say things like: "oh don't bother trying that" or "there's no reason to go there". There have been several times when I've found out myself that there were VERY good reasons "to go there"!
2)People who get way too deep into some pretty heavy theory. That stuff IS really interesting as a point for discussion, but of little practical value. Motors are amazingly complex beasts, slot car motors even more so. They're spinning at ungodly RPMs, having to work under very high temperatures for extended periods of time, they use AND produce electricity simultaneously and most importantly...almost every conceivable variable has been tried. The physics is mindbendingly complicated and I would love to be a fly on the wall for a discussion between two scientists talking about all this, but having done so would be strictly for entertainment purposes!
So here's the short list of what's REALLY tough (and this is just mechanics, actually sourcing good materials is in itself a huge PITA):
1) Press the stacks perfectly and without distorting the shafts...even drill blanks can and will bend.
2) Space the stacks accurately for the setup
3) Coat the stack in the thinnest but most consistent manner possible
4) Install the com timed correctly
5) Wind the stack with uniform tension and as neatly as possible. The winding patterns should be as consistent as possible from pole to pole
6) Terminate the wire at the com tabs (weld or braze) for strength as well as electrical uniformity. This alone can be tough as nails. You can have perfect coils and make the connections and still find the arm meters differently from pole to pole. Go back and redo the welds and all of a sudden things snap into place.
7) Tie the com so it doesn't come apart later but also so you don't damage things...kevlar allows you to pull hard enough to mess up those nice coils you just wound.
8) Epoxy everything...with as little, but not too little, epoxy as possible. Oh yeah, and don't let it run all over the com
9) Grind the stack accurately
10) Balance accurately.
Like I said, just getting good materials to be "ready" to attack the above is a whole other thing. Drill blank shafts aren't at all necessarily straight or even round. Lamination steel is all over the place, as is powder coating and potting epoxy. Commutators are in themselves a whole area you could get lost in. This is the stuff that can make or break armatures. The mass-produced stuff from overseas is great for the price, but look at one of those compared to a winning open arm and it's like night and day. That's strictly because of all this nuts and bolts type stuff, not really theory, and it's tough as heck to get all this "right". Dan is one of the guys (and there aren't many) who DOES get this stuff right. If he's willing to share info, even if he might seem a little testy, it's still a gift the way I see it.
-john
On The Lead Lap
Posted 20 July 2013 - 10:30 AM
Posting Leader
Posted 20 July 2013 - 11:14 AM
I concur with you John!
I know sometimes I will do something just to "find out for myself" because there are so many variables involved and one never knows when they will be successful in discovering something else along the lines.
It too bothers me when, as you said John:
1)People who will say things like: "oh don't bother trying that" or "there's no reason to go there".
Then you ask them if they have done what they just told you not to do. The usual reply is "No, but I know someone who "said" it wouldn't work etc.,".
I'm (I guess) kind of "old school" and believe that guys like Dan get respect because they've earned it.
I believe unequivocally that you have garnered a high level of respect through your own "Research and Experimentation (R&E) and so willingly share your findings. I know I admire your work so much that I have over a dozen of your motors, each one unique unto itself. In fact I've finally fabricated composite chassis's for each one of them!
You're an inspiration John, my humble friend!
Thank you for all that you share with us.
Ernie
Posting Leader
Posted 20 July 2013 - 11:30 AM
Now, I have a question about voltage threshold when rewinding an armature.
When I'm searching the internet, i come across motors with such a diversity of operating voltage. I'll see a motor that has a Recommended Operating Voltage (ROV) of 3 volts, while another is 9V or 12V, some have a range of 3V to 6V etc.,
What specifically determines the maximum voltage that a motor can run efficiently and last longer than single race? Is it the wire gauge and number of windings, magnet strength, commutator material?
I ask because I've been experimenting with a few surplus motors I purchased years ago. The ROV for this is motor is 7 volts. I've been using them on our Blue King which operates at 13.5 volts. I'm just playing around with these motors and at 13.5 volts they're mighty fast and as I deduced, and obviously they do get hot! I run about 20-30 laps at a time but I figured they would have blown up by now.
I've got a 3V motor that I want to experiment with and see what happens.
This video is what peaked my interest is trying lower ROV motors:
Thank you.
Ernie
Posting Leader
Posted 20 July 2013 - 11:43 AM
Grand Champion Poster
Posted 20 July 2013 - 12:07 PM
I agree with all of what John says about trying different stuff.. It's fun and might just reinvent the wheel at some time..But to have some azzhat [Bob] that just wants to fell important and hear himself speak /write some babel in long hand putting down one of the best at what he does is just to much..I very much enjoy John's work and it is work.. But you Sir [Bob] are constantly highjacking posts and make then about you.. If I could Not READ Your BS I WOULD..You just seem to know something [or think you do] about everything and have NO problem telling others that they Know LESS.. I don't post a lot because I don't do it well..I have been involved in Applied Mechanics all my life on one level or another and I can speak well about that.. I have NO problem in Greg fixing up my Junior High School Writing because it's his site and I KNOW my true limits..
For your review:
Here is the highjack ... foo
Is the 'skin effect' taken into consideration with multi-winds as it pertains to the cleanliness of the power source?
Now go and read where the put-down started.
Posting Leader
Posted 20 July 2013 - 12:47 PM
Ernie like the sound of those composite chassis you made. Would love to see some pictures of them
Hi Paul,
Thanks for the interest but I don't readily have a camera and I don't know how to use the blasted cell phone camera (hahaa). Besides I'm not sure how to post pictures here. I do not believe there would any interest in this type of chassis because it seems like everyone does brass and wire chassis or they "blueprint" the readily available stamped chassis.
Appreciate the thought!
Ernie
