108 replies to this topic

[John C Martin]

Right, Cap. If I'm in a halfway bad wreck I'll look at the front of chassis on a tech block to see if tires are still at the same distance off the block as they should be.

 

I noticed at Viper Pit the chassis was twisting in the right front from the high speed in the blue King's bank, (putting the right front tire up slightly), making the car tilt a little too much in the lead-on, as it had right front up from the downforce in the bank.

[Cheater]

This thread has been split off from another thread, as suggested by several members. Because the posts were originally posted elsewhere, the flow of the conversation may seem a little disjointed.

[Dominator]

Bodies make a difference and having the right body mounted right helps alot.  Here is how I mount a few of my "go to" bodies.  These measurements are based off a 4" wheel base with 7/8"-15/16" guide lead.  For those that run a 1" guide lead you may need to push the body forward a 1/16" depending on the body.  Once I have the rear and nose heights measured and marked I use a peice of tape to get a even cut.  Put the body over the chassis while it is sitting off it's wheels and pin. 

 

[W. J. Dougherty]

Dom,

 

So you don't max out the rear end height...  Do you still add the 1/2" spoiler?  Is this the same for all tracks or just high speed tracks?

 

 

Thanks,

[Dominator]

I do still add the 1/2" spoiler. I use the same height for all tracks though I would like to try some lower mounts for King tracks. Since most of the tracks in New England are flatter style having the body higher just seems to make the car tip out more.  I did try the max height initially but found the lower mount to be more driveable. I usually stick with an .010" spoiler.   

[gascarnut]

Thanks to Greg for splitting this thread out. It looks like it will be a valuable source of information.

 

But please, manufacturers, let's not use this as a platform for promoting individual products; the Parts Counter is the place for that.

[John C Martin]

When cutting the body out, say on the line, in the area of the pin hole instead of cutting fender opening to fender opening, leave a 1/4" tab at bottom. Then crease the tab under, folding it flat to the underside of the body. The fold will be stronger than the cut reinforcement stuff. Then I cut pieces of doublestick tape and stick this to the tabs, trim to fit. The tabs are then folded to underside of body. If the mounting holes are close to back or front of wheel openings just extend tabs and tape.

I use big head pins obtained at fabric stores, the big pins are slightly larger diameter also. Before pushing pin in put a small dab of the 9001 clear adhesive over the pin hole,then push pin in slightly, before it makes contact with adhesive go to the backside and PULL pin in until it makes contact then push back out 10 thou. This puts glue on inner face of pin, then put a very small dab on pin head.

[Samiam]

When painting a body I leave the area around the pin tubes clear. Makes seeing the pin tube so much easier. After adding bulletproofing and tape the area is opaque and within the rules.

[John C Martin]

Another use for the clear adhesive on Can-Am bodies... they'll usually spilt at the top of front fender well, or in the valley in the underside of the fins just behind front wheel. After this happens squirt some of this adhesive on a piece of paper then take a toothpick and roll some of the adhesive up there, and get many more races out of body. If it happens at a big race in Friday practice it will be cured enough overnight to race on Saturday. On F1s they split over the front axle, put a skin of this stuff on this little spot. Ideally put this stuff in these places before the wrecks...

This stuff is great on putting interiors in also (Can-Am/ F1). Leave 1/4" square tab in the very front of interior. I put one small dot of adhesive on tab and small dot on where it'll contact body. It says on tube to stick together then separate for a few minutes before pressing together, for faster drying time. I make sure the roll bar is touching back of cockpit. I can let interior sag in back or tack it with the glue where the roll bar makes contact, leaving about 1/8" drop for air flow over windshield for motor cooling... no tape at all needed,and body flexes more.

Yep, Sam, I usually cut and pin the body before paint. I can use the above process in the other thread the same way, just wait until paint dries before applying the doublestick tape to the tabs.

[gascarnut]

Interesting how many guys glue the body pins to the body in some manner. Seems to me this comes over from wing car racing?

 

I have always made a slightly large hole in the body and whatever body armor I use around the hole and then put a slight bend in the pin so it is tight in the tube. Then I don't push the pin in hard, and the body has a nice little bit of "rattle" on the pin tubes. This is especially nice on a Jail Door frame where there is no pan movement.

 

Of course, when you take them out they fall right out of the body so you have to be careful if the body needs to come off during a pit stop!

Edited by gascarnut, 10 September 2013 - 12:49 PM.

[John C Martin]

Dennis, they would probably use super glue. To me it makes it too brittle in and the around the hole.

 

I actually had that area split right off when I pulled the body off when I tried super glue. A flexible adhesive seems to work best... but your idea is great also. Those (ninja stars) would work awesome there... of course glued on with adhesive... LOL.

 

Maybe do your way in rear, my way in front or vice versa... Two less pins to fall out... LOL.

[Dominator]

After cutting my body "on the line", once I have cut out the wheel wells, I cut a 1/2" wide piece of clear straping tape and fold it over the edge. This helps prevent the bottom edge from tearing also while reinforcing the nose a bit.

[Cap Henry]

I like to always try to lightly true new tires so that they have an even cut, I find it a lot of times helps make the car more consistent. I try to just barely grind them, basically just knock any high spots out.

I always true my fronts (JK) down so that both tires are equal size and round. Can-Am cars I usually use a .760-.765" front while F1s get .765-.770" since the fronts don't interfere with the body. This leaves plenty of wear room for both style of cars.

[John C Martin]

Okay... different lead wires for different tracks.

Ralph Thorne Racing's lead wires... I've watched Ralph's and others using his stiffer lead wire blast through doughnuts, stuck like glue. Any sweeping turn the car is tight, not much drift at all... doesn't take much thinking it's the stiffer lead wire.

Okay... on high speed sweeping I'll use this stiffer wire...

Now, Kelly racing has a ultra light lead wire at 2 grams lighter than your standard wire per car. Trick is it's very fine strands andwill break off from clips if done in same way as other wire soldering to clips is done.

The way I'm attaching them with added protection is when I solder wires to clips, I leave as much of the wires insulation as possible and super glue it to top of guide clips ( using thick super glue). Then I take heat shrink at 3/4" long, slice the bottom half off about 1/4" back from guide end and slide this over the solder to clip connection... then heat the heat shrink. After this I use thick super glue the heat shrink tubing on the guide clips. Using the standard wiring loops, I slide another 1/4" piece of the heat shrink down to hold both lead wires together.

 

Okay... I said all that to say this car is faster on tracks with stiffer wire on big sweeping turn tracks.

Stiffer wire for me doesn't work as well on tracks with tighter turns; the car will push out quicker.

The ultra-lightweight wire works better on tighter tracks like road courses... and I'm 2 grams lighter.

Okay now I'm taking two different sets of wires to the different tracks I'll race. They're already attached to the clips so all I do is pull them out and change them to  adapt to track configurations or glue conditions, if I think I can use stiffer wire or lighter more flexible wire.

 

Just another fun deal to tune with...

[Tex]

I need to go back and read this whole thread... good insight above.

[John C Martin]

More ramblings
on lead wire / bodies / tires..
Reasons I think stiffer wire sometimes ..Of course car is mechanically tighter,some tracks too tight.. If not too tight I'm thinking faster, why because rear of car is tracking in corners others are not maybe fresher glue? If car is tighter that will maybe enable me to run a little harder tire or bigger hub, that'll equal faster straight as well as faster bank speed..
Okay the body kicked out in a turn creates side force, this is actually slowing the car to a point,but necessary to keep a loose car in slot..
For instance go down the road 70 mph take @ a 2' piece of gutter hold it out the window of the car ( real car ) try to turn it side to side,impossible.gutter wants to straighten itself, and push your arm back,, Aero ..I can't think of an instance when the can- am bodies without the higher side dams would be more beneficial ..Just as wing cars wouldn't handle as well without side wings.
So with stiffer wire car is tighter and less air is scrubbed off from side drift..slight I know but still there..plus there's the area of the track where there's no surface (the slot and all that slickum that transferred to the braids). I may not be running rear tires in that as much..
Tires I think that goes with the tightness in the turns achieved.. If I can run at least one harder tire ( that'll be outside on the bank,to carry more speed ,inside in the doughnut.more grip. And on a king track I prefer a tick loose car in the lead on which is where the harder outside tire helps..Lots more testing there...
Stiffer wire....harder tire... More side dams. ..O...MY..
I could just run the same wire 95 percent of racers run?
Nah!! This is fun playing and trying different things to be better..and it is fun..

[Pablo]

Different brands of braid are different thicknesses.....use this as a tuning/ride height method.

[John C Martin]

This one simple but useful and quick. Use double face tape to stick your lead on in tuning your car at the track, so you can move it till you find that sweet spot..then pull backing paper or glue on used lead, that adhesive I talked about earlier works great for sticking the lead on it will take a hit as it stays flexible, also it will peal off if you need to remove it..( unlike super glue )( I never throw lead away).
When you're handling at your best make sure your tires still tech.. You can tune all you want but if you're not keeping up with the tire tech & clearances during your tuning sessions you may be fooling yourself.( of course you'll handle better with low tires ) but as Noose says " NO TECH FOR YOU !! Checking rear clearance often during practice is a must for me...

[Noose]

I posted this comment in the F1 Body Mounting thread and thought it might be useful here.

 

One thing I have done on both my CORT blocks is to mount a strip of .010 lexan on the front.  I have found that when I cut the body on the trim line, or where I think it is on some bodies, using this method ensures enough clearance in the front especially if you have rear to fore lift built into your frame i.e shaker or plumber.

[John C Martin]

Now about braid depth .Check several places on older tracks especially ,they're usually varying greatly, the turns get re-glued often and glue layers are built up under braid..I know of a few tracks where it's recessed .15 in straight and .15 above in some turns..some even worse ..one track that even tears hunks out of tires in one place in black (Marietta).You just try to find the happy middle. Burnt braid is sometimes the result of this up and down recessing. Mineral ridge, ohio braid was so high in red and white it was actually stapled down in the bank ( tri-oval where the nats were held ) that was something that caused several crashes..
Some tracks have waves (causing wheel hop) in bad places like viper pit king black lane after lap counter, before dead man turn..Or Snellville exiting bank in red lane, (requiring a blip).
Yes most tracks have character some more than others. Trick is finding them or they'll find you..

[John C Martin]

I know they ain't cheap... but still the cheapest horsepower there is...

 

New braid was worth 2 tenths here...

 

I start the race with new braid and pull them out and flip them over at mid-race.

 

[Danny Zona]

Now about braid depth .Check several places on older tracks especially ,they're usually varying greatly, the turns get re-glued often and glue layers are built up under braid..I know of a few tracks where it's recessed .15 in straight and .15 above in some turns..some even worse ..one track that even tears hunks out of tires in one place in black (Marietta).You just try to find the happy middle. Burnt braid is sometimes the result of this up and down recessing. Mineral ridge, ohio braid was so high in red and white it was actually stapled down in the bank ( tri-oval where the nats were held ) that was something that caused several crashes..
Some tracks have waves (causing wheel hop) in bad places like viper pit king black lane after lap counter, before dead man turn..Or Snellville exiting bank in red lane, (requiring a blip).
Yes most tracks have character some more than others. Trick is finding them or they'll find you..

Hey JC, you remember when the garbage bag holding the water dripping from the roof fell on the track? I believe Biscuit got blamed for it falling. Lol

Also, during the race a car fell in a bucket of water.

[tonyp]

I am sure Biscuit was responsible...LOL

[John C Martin]

Hey, JC, you remember when the garbage bag holding the water dripping from the roof fell on the track? I believe Biscuit got blamed for it falling. LOL.

Also, during the race a car fell in a bucket of water.

Yes, Miserable Ridge on the trioval. You couldn't do much more damage to that raceway. And that was a Nats race, wow...

I would not put that past Biscuit... I remember what he did to the modern plumbing??? in the restroom... Poor Dan...

[John C Martin]

EDIT: I have found a different (better) way...

I've since gone to standard size pins. Do not bend them to hold them in. Instead I now use E6000 adhesive to hold the pins in the body.

After using the Gear Aid Tenacious Tape inside and out, pull the pin back out of the hole, push the pinhead into the tube surrounding the head, then pull the pin the rest of the way into the body..

Now I make sure the pins installed are perpendicular to the body and level or even front to back.. Reason: after this dries overnight I pin the body on the chassis. If pins were even and perpendicular they'll slide in and out of the pin tubes easily. This lets the body move side to side yet it's in a relaxed self-centering position, sorta spring loaded. Bodies are not bound with bent pins against the pans. Tons more side flex, yet body probably only pitches 1/8" in a high speed turn.

The longer full length standard pin is a slightly smaller diameter versus the big head this helps the pins slide, gives a slight more giggle in the tubes, and the longer pins won't let the body exit the chassis... LOL.

In my last big race at Peachtree City on a high speed Gerding King this method was best I had. Hammered in the 90 and punched in every lane in the doughnut , never done that on red before. Car was crazy unforgivable, only slight wreck in red at the lead-on.
 
PS: Not doable on F1s.