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Changes to Stock Car?


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#51 Pat Skeggs

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 03:06 PM

If I had to change anything I would bring the stock back into Stock cars.Every car would be the same except the body's.Same chassis,same gears 9/29 ex,same tires,same motor.I think it would be Cheeper for us and the race would be closer.Being that said,Stock cars are still the best cars to drive in the Retro East.




#52 MSwiss

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 03:12 PM

Pat,
What you're describing is FCR's.

A popular class back when you could buy them.

Mike Swiss
 
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Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
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Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
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#53 Noose

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 03:23 PM

Pat, Port Jeff runs FCR frames with Hawk Retros and the current Stock Car bodies on a weekly basis.  They even run them on the King.

 

FWIW, the top cars at this past weekend's race were all geared the same (8/28) and weighed around 140 grams.  The bodies were pretty much all the same too.

 

All had Hawk Retros in them too. 


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#54 Jay Guard

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 03:30 PM

I think there's a middle ground that could work well for everyone.  This would involve a few minor changes to the existing IRRA rules which would improve the handling and appearance of the Stock Cars as follows...

 

#1.  Allow only 1968 or older body styles, this would eliminate the "aero bodies" like the Talladega and the awful slab-sided Daytona.  There are plenty of other existing bodies that with very minor changes by the manufacturers could be made legal to the below listed changes.

 

#2.  Allow and strictly enforce true .010" thick bodies.  At the same time require the manufacturers to put an indicator ( for example a "B") somewhere in a durable place on the body as an easily verifiable "manufacturers certificate" that the body was in fact produced using the correct thickness material.  This sounds difficult but I have spoken to the top body manufacturer and he assures me it's no big deal and in fact is done on their R/C bodies.

 

#3.  Require fender cut lines, hopefully ones that will allow tire clearance without getting too extreme.  The existing lower door lines and bumper requirements are just fine.  These requirements can be be enforced as they are now when the body is submitted for acceptance to the IRRA BoD.

 

#4.  Allow front and rear track (i.e. width at the axle) to be 3.125", this would improve handling and be no problem if the fenders were allowed to be cut out larger as per suggestion #3 above.

 

#5.  Allow .790" front tires and .040" front clearance.  This would improve handling and provide a bit more tire clearance, both good things and would not require any material changes to the chassis.  

 

These suggestions are minor changes that can be implemented say a year from now which would give ample time for existing bodies to be used up and would require no material changes to the existing chassis'.

 

The IRRA board has consistently said "No" to any changes in the Stock Car class citing local (Retro East) attendance figures to indicate that there is no problem to be fixed.  I say why not endeavor to improve the class and increase attendance?  It may just increase attendance in all regions, not just the South.   

 

Wild Card Idea...

  I like the suggestion that would require larger ( .845"?) rear tires because you could use worn out Stock Car tires for Can-Am and then F-1.  This concept has worked well for F-1 so why not take it a step further?  Unfortunately this would actually increase the rear clearance on existing cars which could have a slight negative effect on handling.  The existing chassis could of course be modified but as new chassis are made they could be made to give .050" clearance with the bigger tires.


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#55 Noose

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 03:43 PM

Jay:

 

1: So you would eliminate the Cyclone too?  The Torino was back poured from that.

 

2. One body manufacturer does not pull anything but the required .015 bodies that meet the .010 side thickness requirements.  If there are others out there then in tech they should get bounced and told to go tape up the whole inside of both sides until they pass.  Happens a lot in other classes too.  And ther eis one manufacturer that does make a Can-Am body in .007 which can't pass the .010 top side measurement.

 

3. Why do you guys feel they don't handle well enough?  What are you expecting them to run like like? A Can-Am?  Use lead, It's your friend. 

 

4. And the BoD did not say no based on the Retro East attendance.  I said I would not be for it because I saw no reason for the changes. 

 

5. Someone one put money up then to get a body made and submitted.


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#56 John C Martin

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 04:04 PM

PS-and quoting that long list of top chassis builders?
I think you're out of touch what some of them charge for chassis.
Among others, Tony P won't roll out of bed for $100, let alone plug in his soldering iron.Lol

I've had 6 tony P canams all were his personal race cars,,2 were raced 4 were not. At the viper pit race they were. $ 100 dollars a piece with body's minus motors..a great deal and I know it..He was already out of bed I guess? They were not the ones you buy at a certain raceway either ,all different..great cars...Highest priced car I bought was $175 stockcar from GVP, RTR
I would not spend $200 for any slot car..nor should any one..maybe your adding your raceway cost to the going prices??
Anyone can Ask what whatever they want..I'm not out of touch ,that's a joke ..L of LOL s..that's funny..
Must be that gold solder they're using on yours ...

#57 John C Martin

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 04:16 PM

Noose my best 2 Stockcars are 121 and 122 grams. And they handle great ,don't they JAY...What's this 140 gram stuff. WOW..This a king track ??
Sorry but yous guys need help with your setups..or something..that's terrible..LOLs
JAY that's exactly what I'm preaching..to deaf ears!

#58 MSwiss

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 04:18 PM

John,
I guess I'll have to think a little harder with my feeble track owner, paying rent every month, brain, how a used Retro car bought on Slotblog or at a race is a great beginner car for the raceway, especially when the beginner knocks the pan off, and the guy he bought it from is in a different state.
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#59 MSwiss

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 04:23 PM

Noose my best 2 Stockcars are 121 and 122 grams. And they handle great ,don't they JAY...What's this 140 gram stuff. WOW..This a king track ??
Sorry but yous guys need help with your setups..or something..that's terrible..LOLs
JAY that's exactly what I'm preaching..to deaf ears!

Your 120g car handles so great?

Then why do the rules need to be changed?

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#60 John C Martin

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 04:35 PM

Now you caught on. A beginner should buy from slot blog ..( from the best builders )
Most all listed at better than $200 are new..MY tony Ps 2 were raced 1st at viper pit, 4 were only practiced once at viper pit..not PCH cars..
Thanks again Tony P..
Believe me mike I don't need any help..but I do not believe in intimidating lets say lesser cars or drivers either. And I don't like bragging either. Tired of saying it to deaf ears but this would help them more than me ...

#61 MSwiss

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 04:39 PM

A beginner should buy a JK car from their raceway, just like Eric G suggested.
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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
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#62 Brinkley47

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 04:56 PM

Would anyone be interested in a winter series in tennessee?
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#63 John C Martin

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 05:12 PM

Yes I would. !!! 4 great tracks in Tenn. No over night races... I'm in heaven..or dreaming. .let's do it before I wake up..
Let 's make it so..and get the guys together to vote on these changes! At the races ..they show they have a vote at any race they attend by years end..Or PM me...
Sound good?

#64 wicked01

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 06:47 PM

I am in definitely......... :good:


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#65 stemmy

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 07:07 PM

I've had 6 tony P canams all were his personal race cars,,2 were raced 4 were not. At the viper pit race they were. $ 100 dollars a piece with body's minus motors..a great deal and I know it..He was already out of bed I guess? They were not the ones you buy at a certain raceway either ,all different..great cars...Highest priced car I bought was $175 stockcar from GVP, RTR
I would not spend $200 for any slot car..nor should any one..maybe your adding your raceway cost to the going prices??
Anyone can Ask what whatever they want..I'm not out of touch ,that's a joke ..L of LOL s..that's funny..
Must be that gold solder they're using on yours ...

lol. I just bid on a canam chassis tony listed on ebay. I placed a $100 bid and the reserve was not meant. Lol
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#66 John C Martin

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 08:49 PM

I know stemmy. Tony and I have some mobility problems ,,I helped getting his cars back on in practice..I liked him ,still do..seems like a very nice guy so I helped him at February. 2012 Race viper pit and again in 2013..id'd do it again too..and I was just getting into Retro...so he was nice enough to give me a deal all 3 cars he built for each of those races..after each race..and they are jewels as all his cars are.... He 's the man everyone needs a Tony P car ..I'm sure someday to be a collectors item...

#67 slotcarone

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 10:28 PM

I have a suggestion John--why not just create a set of rules that suits whatever the locals want to race. Don't bother starting with the IRRA rules and then making changes--that doesn't make sense. Not being a wise guy just suggesting what sounds to me like a good idea.


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#68 Rick

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 10:47 PM

I think one thing you will find, running them at .015 front or .050, will make no change in laps times..........


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#69 John C Martin

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 07:56 AM

Mike the chassis rules are good ,But they can be a little better..just the body rules need the most updating ..IMO. they're are some who don't like the cars as they are now..
Like has been mentioned we don't have a population of millions to draw attendance from as you guys do..You're lucky in that sense,,but I wouldn't live there for anything,,I hate cold and I hate city life...If I were all you guys I run and run quick from there..
I'd sooner be hit by an FCR (or bus) than live up north again..
I lived in Detroit and Chicago growing up some I know what it was like ..
But they're aren't that many tracks here ,but that seems to be changing ..I'm going to do all I can to help them I think IMO this class can improve by this...
All that's needed for simple update is a cut down guide, a Bud Barto F1 axle to space on the inside of wheel or out side., easy to go back and forth if needed..depending on which rules you want to run,,
790 fronts or stay with 812s.doesn't really matter to me which..front clearance I'd like lowered..
May or may not make a difference like Rick said lap times may be the same,,but I think you may run more laps..( center of gravity thing ) science.. To top heavy ( you know like an FCR )
Oh yes don't forget to cut the fenders out maybe the option to remove side windows as well..on a new 10. Thou body..thats not a Daytona ..

#70 Rick

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 11:06 AM

John, I tried to have them allow the wheel wells to be cut out after the Daytona was approved. NEGATIVE! LOL But I do agree with them being cut out and tires out to 3 1/4", would make them look like a short track car and much more appealing to a real race fan. Not to mention handle better. MMW runs a stock car similar to this on their oval and get a good car count and they are really fast. They look so kool! ........should have also said no faster and no more laps. LOL


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#71 Tom Harrington

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 12:57 PM

I live in the same town as JC ( he lives on the rich side) which I hope meets Pablo's geographical prerequisite,  and race at the same tracks as he does. I disagree with him on this and have told him so. The IRRA stock car rules are just fine as they are. The cars are more difficult to tune and drive compared to a Can Am car but so were the real ones.  JC is very passionate about racing slot car stock cars and has been very successful having won numerous USRA and AMSRA National Championships in 4 1/2 stock car. He typically TQ's and wins when racing IRRA stock cars around here. So he doesn't need rule changes to be competitive although he does need to keep buying fast cars from his builders because he can't solder a lick. JC needs to start up, and take ownership of, whatever stock car class that he thinks will increase participation and bring in new racers.

This is not really an IRRA rules issue. Quit beating the horse and go for it JC! On a related note, I was looking forward to running the stock car class at the Fall Brawl this year and getting to see how it's done. In the hotbed of IRRA stock car racing, why no race?  


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#72 Noose

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 01:33 PM

Tom more of a scheduling issue.  They  expect a pretty large field and want to get each day done in a reasonable amount of time.  The best day to have run it would have been on Saturday to get the most participation but with a big F1 crowd expected it would go really late and mess up the annual bench party.


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#73 MSwiss

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 01:37 PM

Great post by Tom.

I only agree with Rick that the cars would look good with cut-out wheelwells if they had big tires.

That's why I applaud Brian Meharry for the great job he's doing locally promoting hardbody racing.

1" tires only.

No model car bodies on a stock FCR.
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
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#74 Rick

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 01:52 PM

When the stock car class was in creation state I was lobbying for .850 tires front and rear to make them more scale appearing. DENIED! LOL  It also does not offend me to see a guide sticking out from under the body, nature of the beast. BUT.

 

The SC are different kind of drive, I think they handle pretty well as they are.

 

An outlaw rogue class by JC, sure, go for it, if it will bring in more racers to your events. Sounds like Tenn is getting more tracks and could easily start up a series there....


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#75 MSwiss

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 02:14 PM

I wanted 1", 7/8" minimum.

Also DENIED. Lol
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#76 MSwiss

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 02:20 PM

I also wanted a rule you had to fight after the race.

Also, DENIED.

It really sucks being "Only 20% Swiss" in the IRRA®. LOL
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#77 JimF

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 02:30 PM

Not even worth $0.02.......but here is what our little tiny program in NorCal did.

 

  • We started with the Falconish motors and slammed stock car bodies like the MAC Mercury.
  • The best drivers were fine with these but those that were not quite the best, crashed a LOT.
  • So, we switched to S7 mini brutes and went with the taller (mostly O/S) bodies.
  • We left the chassis and tire rules @ 3" and .812.
  • No changes were necessary to the cars.
  • So.....instead of jumping through hoops to change the original concept of the class.............
  • Yes......we slowed them down by maybe .5 sec/lap.
  • Now the not quite best drivers are doing better, making more laps and the gap from #1 - #8 is much less.
  • Even the best drivers like that fact that the cars are easier to drive and in some cases, you can run door to door.
  • And.....the racing is much closer and more fun throughout and even at the top that it was before.

 

Throughout the field, including some of the best racers around......nobody has suggested going back to faster motors. Of course there will always be those that think slowing the cars down is some kind of sacrilege or something..........but it works.


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#78 MSwiss

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 03:16 PM

Jim,
While I run my power a fair amount lower than I could,and agree slower is sometimes better, the turnout at the last Retro East race, combined with the super-close finish, lends one to believe the IRRA® Stocker's speed with RH's, is just fine.

And it's not the 30 entries.

The more telling # is the 31 entries in Can-Am, only 1 more than stocker.

IOW,if IRRA® was an ill-conceived class, 30 of the 31 guys there that day wouldn't race both.

But, IMO, even if Stockers were out of control with the RH, Jerry's support of Retro, vs. Rudy's indifference, is a good enough reason, not to adopt the S7 motor.

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
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#79 Noose

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 03:25 PM

We did slow the Stock Cars down for this race and it made them faster and easier.  At least 10 to 12 grams of weight were added and gearing changed from the usual 9/28 to 8/28.  Knocked almost 4 tenths off the track record and still ran at 13.7 volts.


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#80 Noose

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 03:30 PM

And let's give credit where credit is due.  We have grown entrants for this class for a couple of reasons.  First road courses vs. ovals.

 

But the MAIN reason is local promotion by George Blaha.  He got it going at Slots-A-Lot.  The owner Kenny even built some cars and they got a weekly or semi-weekly thing going. 

 

That's how we got more racers.


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The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#81 Danny Zona

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 03:32 PM

I also wanted a rule you had to fight after the race.Also, DENIED.It really sucks being "Only 20% Swiss" in the IRRA®. LOL


I wonder what fight rules would of been enforced? Boxing, wrestling, UFC or sumo? Lols.
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#82 JimF

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 03:46 PM

Jim,
While I run my power a fair amount lower than I could,and agree slower is sometimes better, the turnout at the last Retro East race, combined with the super-close finish, lends one to believe the IRRA® Stocker's speed with RH's, is just fine.

And it's not the 30 entries.

The more telling # is the 31 entries in Can-Am, only 1 more than stocker.

IOW,if IRRA® was an ill-conceived class, 30 of the 31 guys there that day wouldn't race both.

But, IMO, even if Stockers were out of control with the RH, Jerry's support of Retro, vs. Rudy's indifference, is a good enough reason, not to adopt the S7 motor.

 

Mike, I don't disagree with your premise except maybe the Rudy part.....but then I do know Rudy and......you may be correct on that (I can't really say).

 

However, the point of this thread is that John believes the cars are hard to drive and he believes that improving the situation will improve turnout. Maybe so....maybe not but it certainly helped the class in our case. Adopting a slower motor will accomplish that perhaps more easily than completely revamping the rules would. Revamping the chassis, tires etc. would basically change the class from what it was conceived to be. If a region decides that they need to improve their situation......all the talk about how well you all are doing has little bearing on what they see as their problem. Bolting in a slower motor and being able to actually swap paint to an extent and probably tightening up the field, seems a pretty practical alternative rather than maintaining the motor status quo and changing everything else just b/c said motor happens to be made by JK.

 

Then again.....maybe that is all just weirdo Nor-Cal thinking.


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#83 MSwiss

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 03:59 PM

Jim,
Your way works well, too.

When Tracy was here for the Sano, he confirmed what I already knew.

You do a bang-up job with Nor-Cal Retro.

As far as Retro East goes, running an S7 motor on a Gerding or Speedzone's fast Engleman would probably be boring.

As far as John's perceived problem, I don't think the rules are the problem.

If they were getting great turnouts in the other classes, I might agree.
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#84 Pat Skeggs

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 04:56 PM

If you want turnout , try what We do at Slots A Lot. We run a handicap system.Most people get tired of the same people winning.I don't care what class you run, people want a chance to win or a least get in the money.After a few races you should know about how many laps someone should get.As they get better you give them less.Some cats are given 50 laps when they first start, now some of these cats are down to only 5 laps.If it weren't for the handicap , I don't think the class would survive .
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#85 Pat Skeggs

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 04:59 PM

And yes King George is the man!.
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#86 Rick

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 05:19 PM

Close racing would always be more fun racing and I debated the slowing the cars down about 5 years ago. Got booed out of the stadium. LOL.....


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#87 JimF

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 05:19 PM

As far as Retro East goes, running an S7 motor on a Gerding or Speedzone's fast Engleman would probably be boring.

 

Yeah......you might well be right about that part, although running side by each and scraping one another's door handles off is generally far from boring. But..........does Retro South have any of those types of tracks?


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#88 Noose

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 05:25 PM

Look at the results from our mains and the A main. There was plenty of close racing.

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The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#89 Tim Neja

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 05:27 PM

Slowing the cars down is ALWAYS a good idea if you want to ENCOURAGE more racers!!  The only guys that will complain about slowing them down is the fastest drivers that can take advantage of the faster car--and that's NOT the "new" guy you want to help in the first place!! And the Mini Brutes are great little motors--we run them here in our  1/32 SCRRA angle winders and they work just fine!!  I"d say--go mini-brute like Jim suggests--NO slammed bodies and leave the rules alone and GO FOR IT!! You might be surprised how popular CLOSE racing will be!!! 


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#90 JimF

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 05:56 PM

Look at the results from our mains and the A main. There was plenty of close racing.

 

I'm sure there was but I don't think "A" main guys are the point. They can race anything. I think John sees a need to improve his program by doing something to make it perhaps better for some that might not be "those guys" or perhaps not on board with the class at all.


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#91 Noose

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 06:12 PM

Look at the other mains. I agree if getting it going and getting guys in means using slower motors go ahead. Do it locally and develop them them then.
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The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#92 John C Martin

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 09:47 AM

What I want to try, Will involve widening the wheelbase to 3 1/4" ..same 812 tires front and rear..same 50 thou clearance front ..and cutting fender wells out .. Cutting all windows out Except windshield as an option..
Same chassis ..Idea is run a better looking body and maybe handle better??
I'll try this at the next retro race in Cookeville Tn ,,Nov. 15 th. Races to start at @11:30 am..F1 s and Canams ,,Stockcars...
I did a OS # 652 68 chevelle .. And an OS # 605 65 chevelle ..15 thou..
Definitely a better looking car!! This should do it...looks ,,,body choices. Maybe handling if you need it ...
Really not after handling ...body choices are the main objective with cut fenders..
Tom your right I do live in the rich section LOL..the rules are not a problem for the ones racing..It 's a ideal to attract maybe more racers with far more body choices if they want...
All retro racers Attend if you can. And voice your thoughts ...Great track..7 stockcars last race more next time....Track owner supplied plenty of turn Marshall's Also..
I'll D.Q.. Myself..till we get a majority..

#93 John Streisguth

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 10:07 AM

Hey John, the bottom line is to have fun and have enough participation to keep the raceways open.  I like your most recent ideas...pretty much anyone can take an existing IRRA chassis, and with very little work make it into one of these "short trackers".  To make them even more driveable, you can mandate the slick 7 motor.  They sound like fun to me, similar to the FCR class that used the older bodies. 


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"Whatever..."

#94 SlowBeas

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 11:02 AM

JC, I'm kinda curious about something. What's the purpose or desire for cutting out the windows? Do you feel the windows of existing bodies keep it from looking realistic, or are you concerned about the extra weight elevating the CoG on the car?

 

Also, you're giving up on the idea of lowering the front end? I thought that was a pretty good idea, especially if you'll be running the cars on hillclimbs, grandstands, paperclips and the like.

 

Just wonderin'...

 

jb


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#95 Rick

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 11:15 AM

Can I have an opinion on this? Cutting out the windows may make a little better handing because of extra body flex, but not cutting out still makes you no worse off than the guy standing beside you. But they are going to be  a nightmare to marshal and bodies damaged in doing so. It will be like picking up jello. You would be much better off to slam them and leave the windows in, pick a min roof height and use that number....................


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#96 John Streisguth

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 11:43 AM

The only problem with slamming the bodies is if they are hogging out the wheelwells, there may not be much material left above the tires.

 

They may find out pretty quick it's not a good idea...which is why I brought up the idea of testing some of these options before deciding on a course of action


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#97 John C Martin

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 04:58 PM

Jim yes more realistic , and Rick hit it more body flex,,of course some lighter..I'm gonna play some with them cut out. Bodies are thick .I don't think they'll be body damage..
I have some screen material ( sliding storm door the one with the magnets ) that thing sucked..so it makes a great window net ..I'm using a small bead of adhesive at the top and bottom,,this maybe will keep the thumbs from hanging in there add some strength too.
I'd do pictures of the cars if I knew how,,I'll get my son to help me with that (,coming soon..)
Right ,Hogging out the fenders won't work with 812s I have a good 1/8 "of fender left at the top..this should be the min. Requirement ..
Still has a full bumper in front..with 812 fronts..
We can later try a lower clearance in front,??,790 fronts will lower you about half 28 thou. I believe but. This other way you could still race up north. .with a couple of simple changes to front width.and rear. Or better they can come here..we had one from Indiana last week race..
Amazing thing is the door lines are were I cut it...bingo ..that sounds likes a new old rule..
I'm kind of excited to show these cars off..
If anyone wants some of this screen material. PM me I'll give you my address, you send a stamped self addressed envelope .. I'll send you all I can get in the envelope...FREE..
Rick I really don't want to use a tech height on the body,, (harder to mount.).. The door line so far looks like the way to go..Of course no chopped top bodies..
812 tires front seem to self police body heights too..

#98 Bill from NH

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 06:20 PM

If you cut the windows at the bottom, where the glass meets the body metal, you'll some get added body flex. I accidentally found this out years ago when I cut the masking on a .010 NASCAR body  too deep.


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#99 bluecars

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 07:04 PM

:good: Sounds like you're coming up with some good ideas. I wish I didn't live 100 mi. So. of Talladega, I would like to get in on some of this. :good:


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#100 John C Martin

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 12:47 PM

Appreciate that Red,,try it at Talladega.. It's 3 1/2 hours for me been there several times..I'd like to see some of Bud's stockers in this Mode..
We'll do a series race at Columbia tn.. 45 miles from Ala. Line..that help you guys.??
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