134 replies to this topic

[MSwiss]

I also wanted a rule you had to fight after the race.

Also, DENIED.

It really sucks being "Only 20% Swiss" in the IRRA®. LOL

[JimF]

Not even worth $0.02.......but here is what our little tiny program in NorCal did.

 

• We started with the Falconish motors and slammed stock car bodies like the MAC Mercury.
• The best drivers were fine with these but those that were not quite the best, crashed a LOT.
• So, we switched to S7 mini brutes and went with the taller (mostly O/S) bodies.
• We left the chassis and tire rules @ 3" and .812.
• No changes were necessary to the cars.
• So.....instead of jumping through hoops to change the original concept of the class.............
• Yes......we slowed them down by maybe .5 sec/lap.
• Now the not quite best drivers are doing better, making more laps and the gap from #1 - #8 is much less.
• Even the best drivers like that fact that the cars are easier to drive and in some cases, you can run door to door.
• And.....the racing is much closer and more fun throughout and even at the top that it was before.

 

Throughout the field, including some of the best racers around......nobody has suggested going back to faster motors. Of course there will always be those that think slowing the cars down is some kind of sacrilege or something..........but it works.

[MSwiss]

Jim,
While I run my power a fair amount lower than I could,and agree slower is sometimes better, the turnout at the last Retro East race, combined with the super-close finish, lends one to believe the IRRA® Stocker's speed with RH's, is just fine.

And it's not the 30 entries.

The more telling # is the 31 entries in Can-Am, only 1 more than stocker.

IOW,if IRRA® was an ill-conceived class, 30 of the 31 guys there that day wouldn't race both.

But, IMO, even if Stockers were out of control with the RH, Jerry's support of Retro, vs. Rudy's indifference, is a good enough reason, not to adopt the S7 motor.

[Noose]

We did slow the Stock Cars down for this race and it made them faster and easier.  At least 10 to 12 grams of weight were added and gearing changed from the usual 9/28 to 8/28.  Knocked almost 4 tenths off the track record and still ran at 13.7 volts.

[Noose]

And let's give credit where credit is due.  We have grown entrants for this class for a couple of reasons.  First road courses vs. ovals.

 

But the MAIN reason is local promotion by George Blaha.  He got it going at Slots-A-Lot.  The owner Kenny even built some cars and they got a weekly or semi-weekly thing going. 

 

That's how we got more racers.

[Danny Zona]

I also wanted a rule you had to fight after the race.Also, DENIED.It really sucks being "Only 20% Swiss" in the IRRA®. LOL

I wonder what fight rules would of been enforced? Boxing, wrestling, UFC or sumo? Lols.

[JimF]

Jim,
While I run my power a fair amount lower than I could,and agree slower is sometimes better, the turnout at the last Retro East race, combined with the super-close finish, lends one to believe the IRRA® Stocker's speed with RH's, is just fine.

And it's not the 30 entries.

The more telling # is the 31 entries in Can-Am, only 1 more than stocker.

IOW,if IRRA® was an ill-conceived class, 30 of the 31 guys there that day wouldn't race both.

But, IMO, even if Stockers were out of control with the RH, Jerry's support of Retro, vs. Rudy's indifference, is a good enough reason, not to adopt the S7 motor.

 

Mike, I don't disagree with your premise except maybe the Rudy part.....but then I do know Rudy and......you may be correct on that (I can't really say).

 

However, the point of this thread is that John believes the cars are hard to drive and he believes that improving the situation will improve turnout. Maybe so....maybe not but it certainly helped the class in our case. Adopting a slower motor will accomplish that perhaps more easily than completely revamping the rules would. Revamping the chassis, tires etc. would basically change the class from what it was conceived to be. If a region decides that they need to improve their situation......all the talk about how well you all are doing has little bearing on what they see as their problem. Bolting in a slower motor and being able to actually swap paint to an extent and probably tightening up the field, seems a pretty practical alternative rather than maintaining the motor status quo and changing everything else just b/c said motor happens to be made by JK.

 

Then again.....maybe that is all just weirdo Nor-Cal thinking.

[MSwiss]

Jim,
Your way works well, too.

When Tracy was here for the Sano, he confirmed what I already knew.

You do a bang-up job with Nor-Cal Retro.

As far as Retro East goes, running an S7 motor on a Gerding or Speedzone's fast Engleman would probably be boring.

As far as John's perceived problem, I don't think the rules are the problem.

If they were getting great turnouts in the other classes, I might agree.

[Pat Skeggs]

If you want turnout , try what We do at Slots A Lot. We run a handicap system.Most people get tired of the same people winning.I don't care what class you run, people want a chance to win or a least get in the money.After a few races you should know about how many laps someone should get.As they get better you give them less.Some cats are given 50 laps when they first start, now some of these cats are down to only 5 laps.If it weren't for the handicap , I don't think the class would survive .

[Pat Skeggs]

And yes King George is the man!.

[Rick]

Close racing would always be more fun racing and I debated the slowing the cars down about 5 years ago. Got booed out of the stadium. LOL.....

[JimF]

As far as Retro East goes, running an S7 motor on a Gerding or Speedzone's fast Engleman would probably be boring.

 

Yeah......you might well be right about that part, although running side by each and scraping one another's door handles off is generally far from boring. But..........does Retro South have any of those types of tracks?

[Noose]

Look at the results from our mains and the A main. There was plenty of close racing.

[Tim Neja]

Slowing the cars down is ALWAYS a good idea if you want to ENCOURAGE more racers!!  The only guys that will complain about slowing them down is the fastest drivers that can take advantage of the faster car--and that's NOT the "new" guy you want to help in the first place!! And the Mini Brutes are great little motors--we run them here in our  1/32 SCRRA angle winders and they work just fine!!  I"d say--go mini-brute like Jim suggests--NO slammed bodies and leave the rules alone and GO FOR IT!! You might be surprised how popular CLOSE racing will be!!! 

[JimF]

Look at the results from our mains and the A main. There was plenty of close racing.

 

I'm sure there was but I don't think "A" main guys are the point. They can race anything. I think John sees a need to improve his program by doing something to make it perhaps better for some that might not be "those guys" or perhaps not on board with the class at all.

[Noose]

Look at the other mains. I agree if getting it going and getting guys in means using slower motors go ahead. Do it locally and develop them them then.

[John C Martin]

What I want to try, Will involve widening the wheelbase to 3 1/4" ..same 812 tires front and rear..same 50 thou clearance front ..and cutting fender wells out .. Cutting all windows out Except windshield as an option..
Same chassis ..Idea is run a better looking body and maybe handle better??
I'll try this at the next retro race in Cookeville Tn ,,Nov. 15 th. Races to start at @11:30 am..F1 s and Canams ,,Stockcars...
I did a OS # 652 68 chevelle .. And an OS # 605 65 chevelle ..15 thou..
Definitely a better looking car!! This should do it...looks ,,,body choices. Maybe handling if you need it ...
Really not after handling ...body choices are the main objective with cut fenders..
Tom your right I do live in the rich section LOL..the rules are not a problem for the ones racing..It 's a ideal to attract maybe more racers with far more body choices if they want...
All retro racers Attend if you can. And voice your thoughts ...Great track..7 stockcars last race more next time....Track owner supplied plenty of turn Marshall's Also..
I'll D.Q.. Myself..till we get a majority..

[John Streisguth]

Hey John, the bottom line is to have fun and have enough participation to keep the raceways open.  I like your most recent ideas...pretty much anyone can take an existing IRRA chassis, and with very little work make it into one of these "short trackers".  To make them even more driveable, you can mandate the slick 7 motor.  They sound like fun to me, similar to the FCR class that used the older bodies. 

[SlowBeas]

JC, I'm kinda curious about something. What's the purpose or desire for cutting out the windows? Do you feel the windows of existing bodies keep it from looking realistic, or are you concerned about the extra weight elevating the CoG on the car?

 

Also, you're giving up on the idea of lowering the front end? I thought that was a pretty good idea, especially if you'll be running the cars on hillclimbs, grandstands, paperclips and the like.

 

Just wonderin'...

 

jb

[Rick]

Can I have an opinion on this? Cutting out the windows may make a little better handing because of extra body flex, but not cutting out still makes you no worse off than the guy standing beside you. But they are going to be  a nightmare to marshal and bodies damaged in doing so. It will be like picking up jello. You would be much better off to slam them and leave the windows in, pick a min roof height and use that number....................

[John Streisguth]

The only problem with slamming the bodies is if they are hogging out the wheelwells, there may not be much material left above the tires.

 

They may find out pretty quick it's not a good idea...which is why I brought up the idea of testing some of these options before deciding on a course of action

[John C Martin]

Jim yes more realistic , and Rick hit it more body flex,,of course some lighter..I'm gonna play some with them cut out. Bodies are thick .I don't think they'll be body damage..
I have some screen material ( sliding storm door the one with the magnets ) that thing sucked..so it makes a great window net ..I'm using a small bead of adhesive at the top and bottom,,this maybe will keep the thumbs from hanging in there add some strength too.
I'd do pictures of the cars if I knew how,,I'll get my son to help me with that (,coming soon..)
Right ,Hogging out the fenders won't work with 812s I have a good 1/8 "of fender left at the top..this should be the min. Requirement ..
Still has a full bumper in front..with 812 fronts..
We can later try a lower clearance in front,??,790 fronts will lower you about half 28 thou. I believe but. This other way you could still race up north. .with a couple of simple changes to front width.and rear. Or better they can come here..we had one from Indiana last week race..
Amazing thing is the door lines are were I cut it...bingo ..that sounds likes a new old rule..
I'm kind of excited to show these cars off..
If anyone wants some of this screen material. PM me I'll give you my address, you send a stamped self addressed envelope .. I'll send you all I can get in the envelope...FREE..
Rick I really don't want to use a tech height on the body,, (harder to mount.).. The door line so far looks like the way to go..Of course no chopped top bodies..
812 tires front seem to self police body heights too..

[Bill from NH]

If you cut the windows at the bottom, where the glass meets the body metal, you'll some get added body flex. I accidentally found this out years ago when I cut the masking on a .010 NASCAR body  too deep.

[bluecars]

 Sounds like you're coming up with some good ideas. I wish I didn't live 100 mi. So. of Talladega, I would like to get in on some of this.

[John C Martin]

Appreciate that Red,,try it at Talladega.. It's 3 1/2 hours for me been there several times..I'd like to see some of Bud's stockers in this Mode..
We'll do a series race at Columbia tn.. 45 miles from Ala. Line..that help you guys.??