3573 replies to this topic

[Alchemist]

Hi John,

Question please?! As an example, you wind two of your three poles on the motor arm and you are about to wind the last pole. You look at the remaining length of wire and notice that it isn't enough to finish the wind. Can you solder the wire of the last pole wind onto the comm tab, cut off the remaining length of wire, take the new roll of wire and solder that end onto the previous comm tab where you left off and continue to finish the wind without compromising the motor performance?

Though the wire was cut to finish the wind, wouldn't the soldering of the wires onto the tab still make for electrical continuity and not affect performance?

I'm just trying to figure this out please.

Thank you for your time.

Ernie

[Kim Lander]

Ernie,
This can be done, as a matter of fact some I knew did this just to make sure each coild of wire is the same length, however, DO make sure you solder(braze is better) and wrap the com and wires VERY well, then do a good epoxy job on it....Kim

[havlicek]

Hi Ernie,

What Kim said You can wind with one continuous piece of wire, or three separate pieces of wire and either is electrically the same. You can also use a combination so, if you wind two poles and run out of wire, or your pattern falls apart on the last pole...you can certainly just wind the last pole with a new piece of the same gauge wire. While using separate pieces of wire or one long piece doesn't matter as far as the electrons go, there are differences between the two as far as your patterns are concerned. Each will (for a couple of reasons) affect how your patterns work out and each can be used for that reason if you plan things ahead of time. These are just two of many many options when you wind that, as you figure things out, you can keep in your back pocket to make a neater/tighter coil and ultimately have as nearly identical resistance from pole to pole as possible. Neatness counts...a LOT, but so does consistency and some less tidy looking arms will run great.

-john

[Alchemist]

Hi Kim - Hi John!

Thank you for the great info! It's appreciated.

Ernie

[Coal Train]

A little trick I have learnt is to make little wedgers out of erasers to help keep the winds neat and tight.
Just thought I'de throw that in , thought it would help.

[Alchemist]

Greetings and welcome Robert!

That sounds like a great tip (pardon the pun -hahaha)!

Would you have a photo of your wedger so I can better understand what it should look like please?

Thanks.

Ernie

[Dan Miller]

Do not get hungup on the old length of wire thing, when it comes to hand wound armatures.

Keeping the same number of turns per pole goes hand in hand with a nice neat pattern and this is the real consideration. The length of wire idea then becomes a dim second thought that has no real bearing on the arm being wound.

Using more than one piece of wire, as John mentioned, is acceptable with no problems at all. It is another matter, as to how you messed up in the first place, having to resort to the second wire.

Dan

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[havlicek]

When Dan posts, you know that I'm going to be paying attention. I've said the same as what he has above many many times here, but that was only from my small experience. It's always a good thing (and a relief...whew!) to see someone like Dan's thoughts dovetailing with mine. Thanks for chiming-in Dan.

-john

[Coal Train]

Yeah I'm the same I don't even worry about legth anymore, if it's the same nice neat perfect wind all the way around on each stack you will be very very close if not spot on on each pole.

[havlicek]

Absolutely Robert! I have a pretty good meter as far as I can tell and it bears this out. Of course, if you were winding by length and not paying close attention to patterns and neatness, you could easily wind up at the end of your piece of wire and be at the bottom of the stack. So no matter what you do, you're going to have to go for consistent patterns. Also, consistent tension figures into the equation. That's why I use a jamnut and set up whatever clamp I'm using so my crank has "adjustable drag". It makes doing this with the same tension much easier than if the crank is just flopping around.

-john

[Coal Train]

A deep sea fishing sinker can also help , I dont use it I have my own way but I have heard of them being used.

[GearBear]

I have often thought that using one of these would make it easier to wind an arm.



You have great control of tension and it allows you to put the wire exactly where you want it. I have a rotating fly tying vise that I held an arm blank in. I did wind one arm then pulled off the wire to do it again, but haven't gotten back to it after about a year. My ceramic bobbin worked great with the #29AWG wire I used. Of course, after tying thousands of flies with one, I'm used to using it! I didn't rotate the arm much, just wrapped like I would with a fly. Very fast easy way to put the wire on IMHO. I just need to find time to do it. And find some .490" blanks and capped comms. I would love to wind my own Euro arms. Even if I have to send them out to be epoxied and balanced.

[havlicek]

Honestly, I can't imagine anything working better than these:


Tension needs to be pretty significant and consistent, but also needs to change for different gauge wire. By setting "drag" on your crank, you can "feel" how much to tension the wire without breaking it. That's just me though and whatever works for anyone is for sure "the right way"!

-john

[GearBear]

Honestly, I can't imagine anything working better than these:


Tension needs to be pretty significant and consistent, but also needs to change for different gauge wire. By setting "drag" on your crank, you can "feel" how much to tension the wire without breaking it. That's just me though and whatever works for anyone is for sure "the right way"!

-john

Actually John, that is why I like the bobbin. The tension is maintained by gripping the spool of wire (or thread in the case of flies) between the palm of your hand and your pinky finger. Then you grip the tip of the bobbin between your index finger and thumb to move the tip of the bobbin to where you want to wind. It is a very natural movement when you get used to it. And believe me, you can get to the point where you can tension a very thin thread to just shy of the breaking point very consistently. Granted you have to move the wire to a spool that will fit in the bobbin, but I don't see that as a big deal. The other thing I like about the bobbin, is my fat fingers don't fit between the stacks, and the tip of the bobbin tube does

[havlicek]

Cool Gary! Like I said:

That's just me though and whatever works for anyone is for sure "the right way"!

-john

[Dan Miller]

I have both hand tied flies and handwound armatures.

The bobbin idea would sort of pile up the wire on the blank. It is limited in placement of the wire and would only make the arm look somewhat machine wound. If your goal is to save time, fine. As the wire diameter increases, the bobbin becomes more useless.

If you want to create a nice armature, hand wind it. Simple wood Popsicle style sticks, rounded off small screwdrivers and a few other trick tools help much more than a bobbin ever could.

Along the same lines, any tension device would just get in my way.

Use your hands.

Dan Miller

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[havlicek]

What Dan said (again!). Work out some basic "tools" as you see how you need to manipulate the wire and maintain tension. For light gauge wire, I'll sometimes use a round toothpick that I snip the end off. A very handy tool I use is a hard black plastic thing that comes with Weller soldering irons...one side has a groove and the other is sort of sharp in the shape of a pencil. I always keep a box of wooden coffee stirrers around and use those with either the stock rounded end of snip one end square...whatever works. With heavier wire...like #23 - #26 or #27 even, it can take a pretty good amount of force to really lay that wire on there neat and tight.

-john

[John Miller]

I used a brown cotton work glove with the finger tips cut out. I could get great tension control by flexing my hand with the wire wrapped around it.

We used the cap of a BIC pen (pocket clip end) to manipulate the wire for the patttern that was being wound.

I would also protect the tip of my finger with machinest tape. It was a must when winding hundreds of arms per day.

Dan Miller, how have you been? It's been a long time. . .

[Dan Miller]

I use a thin leather glove which protects two of my fingers. The wire is wrapped around my palm and that is my tension device.

Sometimes small slices of plastic credit cards can be handy to have.

Also use #11 X-Acto blades and can think of no substitute.

John Miller,

I am doing OK. Right in the middle of making some new armature lamination dies. They will be run on the same punch press I bought from Ray while you were working with Fantom and ProSlot .

Also making my own commutator as the RJR - Bill Bugenis machines ended up 8' underwater. Very busy at this time.

Dan Miller

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[Coal Train]

Hello Dan
Are you saying you through them in the ocean or a river or you got hit by a flood ? why would they end up under water ?
Whats the chances of getting some .435 Dia arms made ?

[Dan Miller]

Robert,

Hurricane Irene flooded Lou Pirros shop. The machines were in the rear of the building.

No chance on .435" arms from me. Way too small to be effective.

Dan Miller

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[Bill from NH]

Locks on the Mohawk River failed when Lou Pirro's shop got flooded. When I was in the area a week ago, the river appeared to be down 6-8 feet, so the locks must not be repaired yet.

[Coal Train]

Dan
Thats pretty bad
So does that mean that Bill doesnt have any more comms ? or it was just a machine you got from him that you used to make your own comms ?
Can I suck on your brain a bit more and ask , why is .435 to be effective , I've never had one but I was thinking of using one in a 12 segment Neo open drag motor .
Also in your mind what would be more effective and why ?
I have a felling I wil be hanging on ever word you say hear .
Robert K

[Dan Miller]

Robert,

Bill has tons of commutators. Also suggest that he will rebuild his machines over a period of time. I used to mold my own commutators, on the machine Bill now has, for some years, when it sat in Kokomo Indiana at RJR. Bill was nice enough to let me mold a batch last Summer, just before the flooding hit.

In regard to .435" arms, I spoke out of turn, as I know pretty much nothing about armatures for Drag use. Played around some years ago. Ran under 3 class records in testing and let it go.

Check with ProSlot. My guess is that you need a certain amount of wire, on the first layer of the arm, to make it an effective armature for Drag use. Your .435" may limit that feature. If it was reasonable to assume that a Drag arm, made that small, would be a good thing, then the ProSlot guys would have already done something about it. Maybe like testing wire EDM or Laser cut laminations that size, to see how that small size range arms would work, then moving into production of such an armature, if it had proven itself.

I do know that ProSlot is involved in a small diameter Eurosport armature effort. Maybe they are playing with small diameter Drag arms as well. Would not suprise me to find they have already been down that road.

Dan Miller

[Coal Train]

I Have had one ground down by Alpha but it was at the start of my Neo testing and really had not enough laps in my brain to really understand what I was doing so I migrated away but as I test more and more Im drifting back towards that first attempt . The problem with the first attempt is the edgers of each side of the stacks start to reduce in size back towards the stem of the stck and become un-even in width.
Getting 7 winds of 23 gauge is fairly simple on a .445 arm but yeah like you said it could become a bit of a problem with a shorter stem.
I was sponsored by ProSlot for a while there until I lost it with a guy on a different forum and really put my foot in it so I don't think they will be to keen to help me out there , I've only got myself to blame there.
Because drag racing only goes for a very short amount of time I am going to try some arms with the 105°C Enamaled copper wire for my next attempt.

Not the best photo but thats the first test subject.