3573 replies to this topic

[havlicek]

Hey thanks again Barney!

-john

[Jairus]

Hi Jairus,

.490" or .480" ...I don't think that much would be a problem. It would be a little time-consuming as I'd go slow, but it might be fun. That might be a good project to do using a heftier blank to start with since the web and face on these .007" Muras is pretty thin as is. Going down as much as 20 thousandths ...maybe even 30 thousandths (these normally polish/finish at around .510") might not leave a heck of a lot. You have any arms lying around that are whacked and can volunteer for the cause? If so, I'd be happy to have a go at it.

-john

PS...the #24 above screams! For sure it will burn-up some rubber, and I think I'm getting better/neater with the whole welding process. Learning to get a feel for that one little aspect threw a whole 'nuther monkey wrench into the process. It would be cool to do something hot-hot-hot with your strap motor.

I'll do you one better and send the burned up arm from the motor for you to play with. How about that? That way you don't need to turn it and if it fails... toss it. Plus you can measure it for correct diameter. Win win win... oh Gerald Ford, what a memory you gave me.

[havlicek]

OK Jairus. It will be tough to take one of those apart...but for you I'll (of course) give it my best

-john

[Jairus]

Suppose I spoke too soon. Went to the box where I had the car it fitted... and no arm. Think I tossed it....
Never mind.

Also went through all my loose arms and what I have are a couple of INT 15's but they are drilled for balancing.
Have two gp12s (short stack) not balanced.
And a few old Mubuchi arms that are unbalanced and not epoxied but need new coms to be of any value.

Sorry I don't have the good stuff but you are welcome to all.

If I knew what you were looking for.... free to call. 503.587.7443

[havlicek]

No problem Jairus. If the G12's are close to the same stack length, they might work. Otherwise, I can have a whack at the 15's. I'd somehow have to know what the finished arm length and diameter need to be, so if it's possible to send the setup I can figure all that out.

-john

[Slotgeezer]

Hello, John ....

I've watched this thread for awhile, & must agree w/ Mr. Watson ... Your work looks every bit as good as the Thorp, Zimmerman, Checkpoint, & Pooch arms I remember seeing, growing up in SoCal...

Wish I had the $ to have you wind me a 28-29, on a .513" dia. Mura blank, about half-way between X-12 & Group 15 stack length... 22 degree timing, as per Bob E.'s New Zealand winding guidelines... ( One can always dream, eh? ) ... I ran lots of 27-28 Lenz's & double 29 Thorp's, & have always loved double winds... In a late-production Mura "C"-can set-up w/ decent magnets, I know it'd be ballistic !!!

Keep up the wonderful work... I love looking at the nicely-laid windings, & the super-sano epoxy jobs... Slot car art-work, at it's finest...

Take care, John... & good winding !!!


Jeff Easterly

[HarV Wallbanger III]

Jeff ya may get what ya wish for .... keep your fingers crossed.

Your bud Barn

[havlicek]

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for the compliment, I sure appreciate it. Truth is, I grew up in slots just like a bunch of my friends winding arms on a wing and a prayer. The arms I did back then sometimes worked and sometimes "flamed". Even when they did work, it was usually only a matter of time before the sweet smell of melting Mabuchi endbell filled the air. It has only been now that I've put in the time and effort to try and take this to a pro level and people here have seen this all happen as I documented my efforts right here on this forum. The arms started out pretty rough, but have gotten to the point now where I'm feeling pretty good about them. I wound some missles over the last year that I have doubts would last ...using silver solder at the com and regular hardware store epoxy. While getting the tying/welding/epoxying aspects down better...I've also stumbled on better winding patterns and also specific winds, so things do kieep improving.

The thing that people shouldn't forget is that the great winders of the past were supported by racing programs that drove them to improve. When you're winding that many arms and can see the results immediately, you learn things that would take decades otherwise. There is also a bit of magic in all this. These little DC motors are capable of torque and revs that almost seems to defy physics. The great motor guys of the past are the ones responsible for making all this happen! We've seen guys like Steve O'Keefe, Rick and Jairus recreate some of the gorgeous pro cars and have heard them say that they'll spin tires all the way down a long straight...that's what drives me. I have sent arms to guys that have said the cars were almost undriveable...to me that's a good thing I have also had some arms fail, because my finishing/bombproofing wasn't up to the actual winds and hopefully I've gotten past that.

What has surprised me is that there is still secrecy and a reluctance to even point people in the right direction who want to do winding. That's just absurd in my view...almost nobody has the wherewithall to start a competitive motor business and I sure don't want to. There really doesn't even seem to be much interest in running a real "retro-pro" class...meaning chassis built like the beauties Tony P, Philippe and others ran with a C can of some sort (actually...any sort) in there, even though it would be relatively "affordable" compared to the top current classes. People are helpful when it comes to making chassis, painting bodies, gear ratios...but they clam-up when it comes to winding motors No biggie, I'm getting there slowly and sharing what I've learned right here in the hope that others will try or retry winding because it's FUN! Truthfully, the help and encouragement of guys like Jairus, Tony P, Steve O'Keefe, Dave Reed and others has added a LOT to the fun of rediscovering what winding arms is all about.

Wish I had the $ to have you wind me a 28-29, on a .513" dia. Mura blank, about half-way between X-12 & Group 15 stack length... 22 degree timing, as per Bob E.'s New Zealand winding guidelines... ( One can always dream, eh? ) ... I ran lots of 27-28 Lenz's & double 29 Thorp's, & have always loved double winds... In a late-production Mura "C"-can set-up w/ decent magnets, I know it'd be ballistic !!!

I did a lot of doubles when I was a kid (I don't recall doing any triples) and have done some double 28 and even double 26 winds over the last year. Really, I think the main advantage of double winds is that you can pack an arm a lot easier with thinner magnet wire. I don't see that as being really necessary with the better arm blanks and certainly not with the new ones. There's more room on there than you need even doing something as hairy as a #23 awg if you're neat with the winding. I understand the retro appeal, but for me single winds are just fine and the doubles don't seem to offer anything that can't be accomplished with a single. In any case, PM me and I think I may be able to help you out

-john

[tonyp]

Hi John, Stuff looks better every time I come back in here to look at what you are up to.

The advantage of a double or triple is a higher efficiency which in slots is not really needed unless you are on a low power track. In R/C we always used multi wires when we ran on tracks with long straights and you needed to gear up. For low end punch we use the biggest possible wire single.

I always used doubles and triples when I was wining my Russkit 23's and Hemi's because at the time it was easier to get the wire on which made them run better than a single wind of equal wire gauge that I could not get as many turns on. The multi wires also used to run better on the power pack tracks vs the singles on the battery tracks.

Another advantage of multi wires is you can get 1/2 gauge winds.

[Jairus]

John,
If we ever did a Retro race, it would most likely be a one time thing due to the work involved just building one car. But... this is what I would propose.
Cut off date December 31 1970 which would allow any motor, wind, magnets, chassis technology parts and bits used to that date. NOTHING newer!
No modern rubber, no JK concessions no graphite blade, and no limits on design as long as technology stays true to the date. No diamond chassis. No floppy fronts unless you can prove the chassis is a replica of that time period. Frankly, I would like to see all the chassis' built be replicas but finding good pictures and info even through old MCS magazines is tough unless it is one of Tony P's great articles complete with drawings.

A can, B can , C can, 16D are all legal to use. (C-can requires a cut down B endbell to be legal because the newer Mura endbell was not available till later.) Which allows a lot of leeway to building a motor and the parts are all over the place as long as you ask.

As for magnets... might be a good idea to simply choose a set everyone could be happy with and go from there... like a set of Champion white dots or similar as they can fit all the motors in question if shims are used.

Bodies are currently being repoped by three manufacturers.
Wheels are everywhere and Hershman has the orange rubber needed.
Jet Flags are sold by the dozen on ebay for cheap.
Rick Thigpen and Steve Okeefe have even had a bunch of front wheels repoped, all you gotta do is ask: "How much?"
Marklin train wire works beautifully and looks great.

Ideas?

[havlicek]

Hi Tony,

I hadn't thought about the ability to get to half-gauge winds by using doubles. I can get half gauges at Planet Engineers though. So even if someone were to suddenly say...I just gotta have a 26.5awg...I could do that, even though it would kill me to buy a pound of such a thing I sure appreciate both the info as well as the encouragement...so thanks!

Hi Jairus,

I see something sort of related with the "jaildoor" thing going on. Those are some pretty detailed builds and not at all the kind of thing one would do for a first shot at scratchbuilding. Not being an active racer, I don't see any particular additional difficulty to building cars to your 1970 spec but I think the folks that DO race should be able to come up with a set of specs that pretty much fit what you're saying. I think key is making sure the spirit is preserved without being too hardline...AND...allowing for easy sourcing of parts. Seems to me that any full can/ceramic magnet setup should be cool and allow as many people to try it as possible. I'm not really up on what's out there, but it seems as though current C-cans are about ideal as they're easy to get and ProSlot, Kamen, Kelly, Mura and Koford all have setups for between $20 and $25. I also see D can setups starting at around $16, and don't see whay anyone would exclude any of them...the more the merrier, but again I wouldn't be the one to ask about such things. I have to believe that getting the good stuff period-correct is going to cost more than that and be more difficult to obtain as well...but don't think those motors should be excluded either. If such a thing happened some day in the hazy-distant future in a galaxy far far away, I'd for sure do what I could to provide some arms at cost or maybe just a bit over. That would be some crazy-racing and at still reasonable prices. The real show-stopper it seems to me is getting enough people who could build a proper chassis or afford to have someone do it for them. Still, some of those jaildoor chassis are pretty darned slick!

-john

[havlicek]

So my friend Jairus sent me a strap motor that goes to a car he's fixing up and needs an arm (the conversation is back a page or so). Anyway, he sent me various arms to play with and of the ones he sent me, there were two unbalanced short stack arms (G12?) with .007" lams and nice coms. They were unfortunately epoxied and tied, but I went at one of them with a Dremel to see what could be done...or undone. I was able to get all the copper off there and clean it up pretty well. I then took the diameter down to just below .480" (a bit over thirty thousandths off) and slid the stack more to the com end because there didn't look like there'd be enough to get a gear on there otherwise. I recoated the resulting blank with epoxy to prevent shorts since most of the old powder coating came off with the old winds and went at it with some #25 awg. Unfortunately I got called away and distracted while the epoxy was on there so it piled-up a bit on the com end...AND the com itself, but that wasn't really a problem as the old com was going to have to be recut anyway. Besides, I may as well show my goofs as the ones that look pretty I gave it a spin and the thing seems to have almost unlimited revs , I guess because of the short stack and the large air gap in a regular C can for this arm...but it's scarey sounding in a regular C can. I don't have any idea if this length stack is appropriate for a strap motor, but the stack is longer than the magnets. The arm is also is magnetically well-centered, springs right into place so I guess it's OK. Anyway, it doesn't seem to get hot and doesn't draw much current so I'm just glad (and more than a little surprised) that it worked! Not my neatest job because it's hard holding a pattern and getting enough wire on such a short stack, but boy does the thing wind! Hope you like it Jairus:


-john

[Jairus]

[Slotgeezer]

..... Unfortunately I got called away and distracted while the epoxy was on there so it piled-up a bit on the com end...AND the com itself, but that wasn't really a problem as the old com was going to have to be recut anyway. Besides, I may as well show my goofs as the ones that look pretty I gave it a spin and the thing seems to have almost unlimited revs , I guess because of the short stack and the large air gap in a regular C can for this arm...



-john

Great job, John ...
I have only two comments...
1) The epoxy moving toward the comm reminds me of many of the home-wound early Mabuchi arms I saw as a child ... & ...
2) Reading the phrase "almost-unlimited revs" had me sitting in my "confuser" chair, head rolled back, laughing pretty hard, remembering that International 15 arms were wound w/ 50T of #29! ... LOL! ... That #25 wire is a bit larger, eh ??

Hey, not every painting is a Rembrandt... therefore, not every armature looks like a masterpiece... Hey, I built a jaildoor chassis for Barney on Saturday, before the 1st JailBreak fest, & I knew I'd put a bit more solder on it, in places... Hey, it's gonna get crashed, so a bit more solder will serve two purposes... It'll stay together a bit longer, & it won't need extra lead !!!

Great job, John... I just never tire of looking at home-wound armatures... Especially w/ how far you've progressed, in the past few yrs. ...

Hey, Jairus.... Here's a thought .... W/ that photo that John showed, of a rewound 16D armature, I wonder how a "vintage rewind" would run, in a Russkit 23 can, w/ a pr. of Versitec magnets ??? ... Hmmmm ...Looking at the turns/wire# chart in the 1966 Rod & Custom race reports, the most exotic wind I saw was that 60T's of #28.5 that Terry Schmid ran... The 65T of #29 sure looked popular... Pete Zimmerman has told me that he would wind 50T of double-#32, for the loooong enduro races... Interesting idea, eh ???

Take care, gentlemen... I enjoy this thread a LOT !!!

C-ya!!!


Jeff Easterly

[havlicek]

Hi Jeff,

I hear you! I used to not really care too much about how they looked, but now the extra epoxy near the com does irk me a little As for the wind itself, I usually spin them all up to 12V to see what's what but there are a few rev so high and fast that I just get too worried about to do that with...this was one of those. Maybe having that extra bit of epoxy near the com isn't such a bad thing after all

Hey, Jairus.... Here's a thought .... W/ that photo that John showed, of a rewound 16D armature, I wonder how a "vintage rewind" would run, in a Russkit 23 can, w/ a pr. of Versitec magnets ???

I'm going to be doing-up a couple of Russkits in a little while along with some other vintage motors for a member and I have what I think is a good plan for them wind-wise. That should be a fun project!

-john

PS...check your mail tomorrow, maybe Tuesday

[don.siegel]

John,

Strangely enough, I didn't read your whole post before looking at the pictures, and I was saying to myself how much I liked what you did with the epoxy around the commutator! Looks very sano I thought - and then I saw that it was a error! Well, that's how penicillin was discovered, right?

Anyway, it's a beautiful arm...

The only couple motors I've rewound in the last few years are a pair of Russkit 23s, to use in an Iso-Grifo Black Widow 4WD car (no, I'm not crazy, but I bought it with those two motors, and one was burned out, so...). I think I used 70 x 31 and they run very well - we're generally on shorter tracks here in Europe than you guys in the States, so I didn't want to go overboard.... stock magnets, but shimmed. I may actually replace those with the normal pair of Russkit 22s, and then use one of these in a jail-door chassis. It will be a little milder than the winds in the R&C races, but should be okay.

Don

[Michael Rigsby]

Beautiful, beautiful arm , John. Put that little baby in a blueprinted C can with some uncut Cahoza T-5 magnets and go for a .500 air gap, and I bet it would scream
Michael

[havlicek]

Hi Don,

I'm always glad to share experiences with other winders here and to have them criticize or just offer opintions about my arms. Thank you very much for looking and sharing your winds. We have a bit more leeway here both because of the tracks but also because motors like the Russkit won't be seriously raced as they were all those years ago. I'll be going a little hotter than 70/31 for the Russkits, but if they had to be raced hard as they were then...I might back off a little bit.

Hi Michael,

I'm completely lost when it comes to strap motors, but I can say for sure that it sings even in a C can setup for a .512" arm. I haven't had much experience with really short stacks either and always figured that you'd be gaining rpms at the expense of torque...but this arm makes me want to experiment a little more with them and arms for strap motors. I'm looking forward to the next time I get to do one for someone. They're a pain to wind because the blank won't fit in my crank without shimming with aluminum foil and because the short length makes holding a pattern more difficult, but they're pretty neat. In the end, Jairus will be the one to tell me if I've been successful or not!

-john

[Michael Rigsby]

May have to talk to you about doing me some handwound 16D's. Yeah, I know, old school stuff. But we still race them down here . Again.....beautiful work

Michael

[havlicek]

Thanks again Michael and just let me know. I know that there are still good coms out there like the Tradeship ones and would guess there must be blanks also. Even if the blanks are hard to get, those arms are a cinch to cleanup for rewinding.

-john

[havlicek]

So I have three Russkits to do...two 22's and one 23. Here are the 22's so far. I've:

-torn them apart
-stripped the cans
-removed the cup bearings and soldered-in regular oilites
-removed the wire
-straightened the stack, clamped and epoxied them
-insulated the inside of the poles
-trimmed the fiber endplates flush with the stack
-polished the arms
-repainted the cans (I got lucky and found a color that's pretty dead-bang "on" compared to the original color), sprayed new adhesive on the labels and stuck them back on there.

I just have to install the new coms, but am waiting for the endbells to get here so I can check for clearance...THEN I can wind them. Neat little motors.



-john

[Horsepower]

Do those big honkin' commutators work? Won't they throw off the timing? Just asking......

[Slotgeezer]

Hello, John !

These Russkit motors REALLY look sharp!

I'll watch this tread, to see how you "develope the retro-technology" to rewind these motors...

Great job...

Take care, & good winding...


Jeff Easterly

[havlicek]

Do those big honkin' commutators work? Won't they throw off the timing? Just asking......

Hi Gary. The diameter of the Tradeship coms at the "working surface" is about the same as the current Mura coms I use and since the center of each segment is still 120° away from the next regardless of the diameter I don't think that part should be a problem. In "micro" terms, the brushes will be in contact with each segment for a little while longer while the arm is spinning than they would be with a skinnier commutator, so an engineer will have to say what that means...I'm just a carpenter The thing I'm waiting to see is how they clear the inside of the Tradeship endbells when they get here; hopefully I don't have to radius-out the inside to get them to fit. The E Dreams site says they're for 16D motors and I assume that they'll fit in the Tradeship endbell...we'll see In any case, I left the stock coms on there for now as a "fallback position" in case of problems

I have a Russkit 23 to do for someone else and he supplied me with all the parts including a nice com sized to fit the 23 endbell. I don't know what make that com is, but since the 23 has the slightly better endbell (better brush setup with the pentagonal brush holders), that motor will use the Russkit endbell.

Hi Jeff and thanks. I haven't screwed-around with any old Mabuchis since I was a kid so this is all kind of new to me. As flimsy and archaic as these motors are looking at them today, they are cool as heck too and it's like being transported back 4 decades working on them...except now I have a better idea of what I'm doing Sometime I'd like to get my hands on a K&B Wildcat (I think that's what they're 16D-sized motor was called...or was it Bobcat?) because that was my favorite back then. I can almost smell the wintergreen!

-john

[tjsguns]

VERY COOL!!