170 replies to this topic

[brucefl]

Rick, how much are you asking for it when it's done? PM me.

[dc-65x]

Hi Bruce,

Glad you like the chassis. I'm building it as a special project for my friend Adam. It's a car he's always wanted ever since he first saw it 34 years ago in Miniature Auto Racing newsletter.

[prplgeez]

Rick, yours is a case where the copy exceeds the model.

Bruce, I couldn't agree more. I'm tell'n ya . . . the original is nowhere near this pretty!

[dc-65x]

Joel found an original early Champion thick-wall can for the project. Not only that but he’s offered to modify the can and Mura endbell just like he did in 1973 . . . how cool is that!

He couldn’t find the original fixture to turn down the endbells to fit the Champion cans so he made up a one-off gizmo to do the job. Joel took a few pictures for us and apologized for the quality but I say thanks for sharing the “birth of a Pooch”! Here are his pictures and comments:



" . . . first dialing in the fixture. Back in the day, I would have taken the time and effort to use a four-jaw chuck to get it dead nuts but I didn't have a South Bend "Heavy 10" then. Anywayz . . . first to get the fixture running true, then to do the actual turning. The spud is turned to the inside diameters of the endbell and has a cross pin that engages the tower of the endbell for a positive drive.



“The gizmo (on the other side of the endbell) is a home-made live center sort of thing
which consists of a ball bearing mounted on the end of a piece of aluminum. The bearing engages the endbell directly and spins with it to prevent it from sliding on the spud. A very gentle pressure is all that's required and honestly, it wouldn't really need the bearing . . . a little bit of rubbing wouldn't be a problem for such a minor amount of pressure.”

Thanks, Joel, can’t wait to see the can mods!

[prplgeez]

Actually, Philippe, the cans were stock height. I didn't want to move the steel closer to the armature top and bottom and later even went to the extreme of machining the can from the inside over top and bottom of the armature to move it further away but the eventual solution proved to be just removing it completely. The magnets were shimmed top and bottom during that era but that was later discarded when we went to epoxying them in place and ID-grinding then polishing the magnets.

[TSR]

Hi Joel.
I thought that you may have done that because the stock can I had here is taller by about 15 thou than the 1972-vintage Pooch motor in my hands . . . so my assumption was wrong. The difference may be explained by simple blueprinting, who knows? Since Bill Steube was doing it, I thought that you might have. The Camen/Pooch motors we have at the museum (loose and in cars) are of different eras, some with the Champion endbell (small bearing), some with Mura and the large endbell.
All except for the ones with the Mura cans have magnet retaining springs but do not appear to have shims. Then again I did not look that deep into it yet, I am just looking from the can bearing side . . .
If needed for the restoration, we have a few original NOS Champion "red" endbells for the C-cans, fitted with Mura buss bars. We also have a quantity of Mura endbells with the large bearing.
We are much poorer in Champion C-cans . . . :|

[TSR]

Does the museum have any Hi-Pro or Bullit (Walt LaBree and Russ Boyington, two well-known CT pros) motors or setups?

No, and that would explain the different dimension. I was never too familiar with the Champion C-can, since we just did not run them on the Left Coast. We just have a few Pooch/Camen plus some arms and that's it.
We do have earlier Kean Kans and an array of other Champion C-can motors but we do not know who built them.
When I visited with Carl Ford last month, I really did not push that issue, I should have . . . :|

[Foamy]

Champion had .030 cans made on the same or similar tooling as the .040 cans, meaning they looked identical as the .040s.
I have seen .040 cans milled top and bottom to .030; maybe this is what you have.

[Foamy]

I was never too familiar with the Champion C-can, since we just did not run them on the Left Coast.

Some of the fastest Balljoint motors I have seen race were Champion can-based. That was after you stopped racing, though. I was dragged to Bill's shop one day and tried to buy a couple cans. There was a tray of maybe 30 of them just sitting in the open. I was told no because the bearing hole was too big and I would never get the bearing centered in the can.

I made my own Champion setups with the help from a machine shop friend that ran just fine.

Too bad all that stuff got purged in the early cobalt motor days . . . I do have one Revtech Champion setup left never finished.

[prplgeez]

Foamy, you're WAY TOO MODEST!!! Your stuff ran a whole lot better than 'just fine'!!! And the best part was the M80 when you'd had enough!!!

[dc-65x]

Joel just emailed me and I've got to share this with you:

"Got the can sides ground. This was a can that had a broken weld and although the brazing process shown wouldn't have been a production technique until later, it was necessary for this one. Then a couple of poorly-lighted shots of the grinding process and the finished grind".

"In '73 this turning process would have been accomplished in a Unimat and would have taken many passes a few thou at a time with a single point cutter. Today, I'm just set up for can grinding and I didn't think this would violate the spirit of the era toooooo much and sure saved a lot of time".

This is what a professional in a well-equipped shop can accomplish. All I can say is HOLY SMOKES!







A 1973 Pooch Plus V is being created before our eyes in 2007 . . . Is this cool or what! 8)

Thank you, Joel

[Foamy]

Considering all the cans I blew apart trying to single-point them too fast, I gotta say that seems like cheating! :mrgreen:

[prplgeez]

Oh, can I EVER identify with THAT!!! Hey . . . you got any of those cans left? . . . we can fix nowadaze.

[dc-65x]

Joel's been working on the motor some more . Here is his latest report and pictures:

Got a little bit more done.

First we scribe a location mark for the center hole, then center punch and either punch or drill the hole. The punch would have been accurate for that era but a drill would have worked just as well except for a little more deburring involved. Ya say ya didn't get it in the center . . . yeah well, neither did I . . . that's what those nasty little round jewelers files are for.

There was some thinking that there would be better air flow if the hole was off center toward the direction of rotation but it eventually proved superior to simply remove all the metal over the armature.

Shortly after this era we experimented with machining the can from the inside to remove steel directly over the armature. Imagine spinning the can in a lathe and engaging the inside of the can between the original vent holes with a small grinding wheel in a tool post grinder or even a Dremel fixtured to the cross slide. The idea being to reduce magnetic drag produced by the energized armature coil in close proximity to the ferrous material. It helped a little, but as I said above, it eventually proved superior to simply eliminate all the steel and live with the resultant flux loss. The motors ran faster and cooler.

Thanks, Joel.

[One_Track_Mind]

A 1973 Pooch Plus V is being created before our eyes in 2007 . . . Is this cool or what! 8) Thank you, Joel.

Rick, I'm not sure what the 'what' would be?, but you're correct, this is very cool! :up: 8)
Thanks everyone for sharing the info.
I just this place!

[Slotgeezer]

Ah!!!! A Whitney punch! :mrgreen: :up:

My favorite tool! :kiss:

[dc-65x]

This thread has been on hold because Joel has been super busy. Don’t you just hate it when our real lives get in the way of our vintage slot car passion!

Anyway, to get the ball rolling again Joel came up with alternate solution to building a “new – old” Pooch motor. Here’s the email Joel sent me with what he had in mind:

“Rick,

In the interest of time, I've changed things up a bit. I will send you a "kit" tomorrow. I have to go out to the house and work over the weekend so in order to get everything in the necessary time frame; it looks like you're going to have to do the assembly.”

I have to interject here with a WEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I get to help Joel Montague build a Pooch motor!

Now back to Joel’s email:

“I have switched cans because one of the things I found in the 'discovery' is a motor from not too much later that is not just a 'team' motor but is one of my personal motors from about 1977 and was named "Henri's Friend". Henri was my best motor circa 1977 Nats and the proper pronunciation is similar to the French... Awnrey... but with the accent on the first syllable as in; meaner'n hell:) ORNERY!!

Anyway, Henri's friend is coming your way. The heat sinks and buss bars are not correct (black anodized heat sinks - Mura buss bars) but I'll include them along with the bits and pieces you sent.

Magnets are a bit more trick than the 1973 era as they were ground in the can. You'll have to shim to an appropriate air gap.

I had to re-dye the endbell... it came out a bit dark but not too bad.

Joel”

I asked Joel if he wouldn’t rather keep this special motor and display it or something but he said:

“Rick, don't even THINK about it... Henri AND Henri's friend were built to USE!!! He's just delighted to find SUCH a marvelous opportunity to perform again. All'z he asks is that you pronounce the name right ”

Holy Smokes! Adam’s getting Joel’s personal Nats motor! Why didn’t I build this one for myself? Adam, you lucky dog.
Here is Henri’s Friend wearing a new coat of paint and freshly dyed purple (what other color could it possibly be!) endbell:





Now how about this armature Joel sent WOW!:





I’ll get the armature out of the bag and take some pictures soon. I sent Joel a set of my clone Parma Dougherty like these:



He said he has something planned for them. When I get them back I will assemble and install Henri into his new home. I’m sure Adam will give him plenty of opportunities to show his stuff!

Onward…

[Jairus]

Very nice, Rick! Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy/builder in my never to be humble opinion.
As an aside... the Pooch motor in my possession also happens to have those neat little cut and fold magnet tabs! Photos forthcoming in another thread...

[Jon Laster]

Oh, a Pooch 6/7... Philippe never had a chance! Been looking at my old chassis from the era trying to remember who did what first, and drawing a near blank (bad habits of the time...) the progression from the first isos, with the rear very marginally connected to the drop-arm; then one rail soldered the length of said drop arm... finally two rails, straight from rear axle to guide; the progression seems clear, but who gets credit? The fuss over front wheel treatment seems a smaller detail.

Back to 1973 (gas lines?) the most interesting things would be chassis length, front-end weight. and general bite; if Joel's car was longer. With more front-end bias, it would have run freer, exhibiting more power. At least under the full-glue conditions of the day...

[dc-65x]

Hi Jon and welcome to the forum. Bad habits of the time... indeed . That armature does look menacing! Thank you for sharing your insights.

[Jon Laster]

Oops! I meant to be droll. What I should have said was; Wow, a Pooch 6/7! Those were the armatures of the gods! They were, too...

[dc-65x]

Here's the "Armature of the Gods" (I like that ) out of the package:



I found a S26 that looks like it might be one of Joel's??? Look at the similarity of the engraving:



Here are two other "hopefuls" that aren't engraved:



Joel sent some other goodies for the next post...