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Joel Montague's 1973 Nats Winner


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#101 TSR

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Posted 26 February 2007 - 07:37 PM

Hi Rick,
Do you have a correct Champion C-can or do you need some help? :)




#102 Horsepower

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Posted 26 February 2007 - 09:23 PM

KEEP IT UP I LOVE THESE ARTICLES LIKE THE OLD CAR MODEL MAGS.

YES, BUT BETTER BCAUSE THEY ARE IN COLOR~and they're free too. :)
Gary Stelter

#103 S.O. Watt

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Posted 27 February 2007 - 12:07 AM

Why grow up? :lol:


A stunning recreation. Kudos are well deserved.



As Mike said earlier . . . I wanna solder like YOU when I grow up! :)


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#104 Maximo

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Posted 27 February 2007 - 01:59 AM

Rick,


I wanna bend - form - fabricate and polish metal like YOU when I grow up! 8)


-Maximo
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#105 endbelldrive

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Posted 27 February 2007 - 03:27 AM

Formidable project, Rick. I'm looking forward to the motor build too and curious if Joel might gives us an overview of his motors circa 1973. :)
Bob Suzuki

#106 brucefl

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Posted 27 February 2007 - 09:17 AM

Joel, buddy friend of mine, forgive me (credit where credit is due; you da innovator par excellence and your chassis, etc., were winners) but Rick, yours is a case where the copy exceeds the model. I've gotta see it with the other lighting (you da Vargas of replica builders).

May I make a suggestion: get a gold chain to match and I'll wear it! Forget about racing it.

Hey, when ya gonna fulfill my Hannakan list of chassis? PM me. :mrgreen:
Bruce Schwartz

#107 dc-65x

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Posted 27 February 2007 - 10:06 AM

Do you have a correct Champion C-can or do you need some help? :)

Thank you for the offer, Philippe. :) All I have is the later thin-walled CEE can. Joel did some searching and has come up some Pooch motor parts for the project. I will email Adam because Joel has some motor decisions for him to make. :up: This is going to be fun. :mrgreen: 8)

I'll post pictures of the Pooch-modified early thick-walled Champion C-can and the later thin-walled Champion CEE can soon. Below is what Joel told me last night:

PS: . . . the thin can you describe is probably the "CEE" can (as opposed to the C-can). It was a deep-drawn can similar in manufacture to the Mabuchi but somewhat better. Not nearly as good as the modified C's though . . . it was thin and the deep drawing process necessitates a taper in order to withdraw the form tool. I don't think any of the serious racers ever used one in anger.


Rick Thigpen
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#108 brucefl

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Posted 27 February 2007 - 11:54 AM

Rick, how much are you asking for it when it's done? PM me.
Bruce Schwartz

#109 dc-65x

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Posted 27 February 2007 - 01:06 PM

Hi Bruce,

Glad you like the chassis. I'm building it as a special project for my friend Adam. It's a car he's always wanted ever since he first saw it 34 years ago in Miniature Auto Racing newsletter.

Rick Thigpen
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#110 prplgeez

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Posted 27 February 2007 - 01:39 PM

Rick, yours is a case where the copy exceeds the model.

Bruce, I couldn't agree more. I'm tell'n ya . . . the original is nowhere near this pretty!
Joel Montague

#111 Bill from NH

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Posted 27 February 2007 - 02:16 PM

Joel, yours might not have been as pretty but it was pretty fast! :lol: :lol:

#112 dc-65x

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 11:56 AM

Joel found an original early Champion thick-wall can for the project. Not only that but he’s offered to modify the can and Mura endbell just like he did in 1973 . . . how cool is that!

He couldn’t find the original fixture to turn down the endbells to fit the Champion cans so he made up a one-off gizmo to do the job. Joel took a few pictures for us and apologized for the quality but I say thanks for sharing the “birth of a Pooch”! Here are his pictures and comments:

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" . . . first dialing in the fixture. Back in the day, I would have taken the time and effort to use a four-jaw chuck to get it dead nuts but I didn't have a South Bend "Heavy 10" then. :) Anywayz . . . first to get the fixture running true, then to do the actual turning. The spud is turned to the inside diameters of the endbell and has a cross pin that engages the tower of the endbell for a positive drive.

Posted Image

“The gizmo (on the other side of the endbell) is a home-made live center sort of thing
which consists of a ball bearing mounted on the end of a piece of aluminum. The bearing engages the endbell directly and spins with it to prevent it from sliding on the spud. A very gentle pressure is all that's required and honestly, it wouldn't really need the bearing . . . a little bit of rubbing wouldn't be a problem for such a minor amount of pressure.”

Thanks, Joel, can’t wait to see the can mods!

Rick Thigpen
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#113 TSR

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 03:45 PM

Rick,
I am happy that you found a solution to the parts needed. In fact Joel, who happened to be at the time the finest motor builder on the East Coast, did a lot of work on those Pooch motors. Since we are lucky enough to have a few nearly intact survivors in the museum, I can tell you a few of the tricks he used, and they really worked.
The Champion C-can was indeed made in two versions, a thick one made with the same process as the Mura cans, i.e. made from a progressive die, stamping the can in a flat shape from sheet steel, then forming it over a buck. The joined sides were then electric welded. Material was carbon steel, .045" thick or so. It looks pretty good and straight.

The second type is much thinner and was drawn like a Mabuchi FT16 or a modern FK-series motor, but the Champion tooling was not too good and caused rippling all over the can. Those are almost unusable for anyone serious about building good motors. Some of these cans have two "ears" on top and bottom, drilled to receive the two assembly screws like the old Champion 517/617 used to be, corresponding to a groove on the Champion red plastic endbells. Of course this method was not satisfactory at all, and Joel discarded this method of endbell assembly. I do not know which was first produced, but I imagine that the later must have been the thinner one, so as to save money on production. I will have to ask Carl Ford about that one.

Joel used the "good" cans and machined the sides down to make them thinner and, it appears, also lower from what I have measured (to fit the magnets better, I suppose) while retaining the original thickness where the four Champion slotted flathead screws were mounted. He also increased the rear axle clearance by removing some of the can material where needed. The Champion Blue Dot magnets were then contoured and fitted without shims in the machined can, using two U-shaped springs, then honed to whatever clearance he wanted. Joel also drilled an extra 3/16" hole between the two vent holes on the can, again to alter the magnetic field and provide better cooling. He originally used Champion endbells as seen on some examples but later turned to the better Mura unit and machined them to fit. The early examples we have use hand-built buss bars, the negative one going though a hole drilled on top of the endbell, so that mechanical failure during a severe impact would be reduced. In comparison, Bob Green and Lee Gilbert merely filed a notch in the end bell and tied the buss bar with copper wire. Not quite as strong . . . Later Joel used the Mura buss bars after they went in production in late 1972.

On this Tony P-built car, one can see the buss bar going through the second-generation Mura endbell with the larger bearing. Note the use of machine screws to retain the hardware as well as the brush spring once wound in place, avoiding possible trouble during a crash as the spring is now captive.

Posted Image

Joel was one of the first to insulate the brush springs with Teflon tubing, so as to let the brush shunt wires transmit both heat and power to the lead wires. Sounds pretty standard today, but was something pretty advanced then . . .

Posted Image

You can see more of such motors in THIS STORY published a couple of years ago on the Electric Dreams vintage site. :)

#114 prplgeez

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 04:35 PM

Actually, Philippe, the cans were stock height. I didn't want to move the steel closer to the armature top and bottom and later even went to the extreme of machining the can from the inside over top and bottom of the armature to move it further away but the eventual solution proved to be just removing it completely. The magnets were shimmed top and bottom during that era but that was later discarded when we went to epoxying them in place and ID-grinding then polishing the magnets.
Joel Montague

#115 TSR

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 05:45 PM

Hi Joel.
I thought that you may have done that because the stock can I had here is taller by about 15 thou than the 1972-vintage Pooch motor in my hands . . . so my assumption was wrong. The difference may be explained by simple blueprinting, who knows? Since Bill Steube was doing it, I thought that you might have. The Camen/Pooch motors we have at the museum (loose and in cars) are of different eras, some with the Champion endbell (small bearing), some with Mura and the large endbell.
All except for the ones with the Mura cans have magnet retaining springs but do not appear to have shims. Then again I did not look that deep into it yet, I am just looking from the can bearing side . . . :)
If needed for the restoration, we have a few original NOS Champion "red" endbells for the C-cans, fitted with Mura buss bars. We also have a quantity of Mura endbells with the large bearing.
We are much poorer in Champion C-cans . . . :|

#116 Bill from NH

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 07:59 PM

I think there were at least two runs of the drawn .030 Champion cans. The first was available when the .040 stamped ones were. Does the museum have any Hi-Pro or Bullit (Walt LaBree and Russ Boyington, two well-known CT pros) motors or setups? Both always used .030 cans from this first batch. If so, you'll notice they possess the same level of straightness as the .040 cans Joel used. It was a later batch of .030 cans, made about 1974 that are wavey. I don't know if this later batch was made on worn-out dies or if they were made by someone else. But the quality sure wasn't there. This batch also has more shine to its black paint. :)

#117 TSR

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 08:07 PM

Does the museum have any Hi-Pro or Bullit (Walt LaBree and Russ Boyington, two well-known CT pros) motors or setups?

No, and that would explain the different dimension. I was never too familiar with the Champion C-can, since we just did not run them on the Left Coast. We just have a few Pooch/Camen plus some arms and that's it.
We do have earlier Kean Kans and an array of other Champion C-can motors but we do not know who built them.
When I visited with Carl Ford last month, I really did not push that issue, I should have . . . :|

#118 Bill from NH

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 08:12 PM

Bob Rule might be a good individual to talk to as well. :)

#119 Foamy

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Posted 14 March 2007 - 12:32 AM

Champion had .030 cans made on the same or similar tooling as the .040 cans, meaning they looked identical as the .040s.
I have seen .040 cans milled top and bottom to .030; maybe this is what you have.
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#120 Foamy

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Posted 14 March 2007 - 12:44 AM

I was never too familiar with the Champion C-can, since we just did not run them on the Left Coast.

Some of the fastest Balljoint motors I have seen race were Champion can-based. That was after you stopped racing, though. I was dragged to Bill's shop one day and tried to buy a couple cans. There was a tray of maybe 30 of them just sitting in the open. I was told no because the bearing hole was too big and I would never get the bearing centered in the can.

I made my own Champion setups with the help from a machine shop friend that ran just fine.

Too bad all that stuff got purged in the early cobalt motor days . . . I do have one Revtech Champion setup left never finished.
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#121 prplgeez

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Posted 14 March 2007 - 01:50 AM

Foamy, you're WAY TOO MODEST!!! Your stuff ran a whole lot better than 'just fine'!!! And the best part was the M80 when you'd had enough!!! :)
Joel Montague

#122 Bugeye

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Posted 14 March 2007 - 09:34 AM

Philippe or anyone,
Can you post a pic of a Kean Kan? I am suppose to have one in my
stash but don't know what I am looking at. :|
Rob Giorgi

#123 TSR

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Posted 14 March 2007 - 10:07 AM

Hi Rob,
I think that I will do this in another thread because poor Rick is just trying to build his motor for the replica of Joel's car here. :)
But I promise to do so soon.
Coming back to the 1973 Nats, I think that Joel should donate his colorful pants to the museum. Joel, you DID keep those, did you not? :mrgreen:

#124 Bugeye

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Posted 14 March 2007 - 12:03 PM

Oops. You're right. Sorry, Rick.
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#125 dc-65x

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Posted 31 March 2007 - 12:00 AM

Joel just emailed me and I've got to share this with you:

"Got the can sides ground. This was a can that had a broken weld and although the brazing process shown wouldn't have been a production technique until later, it was necessary for this one. Then a couple of poorly-lighted shots of the grinding process and the finished grind".

"In '73 this turning process would have been accomplished in a Unimat and would have taken many passes a few thou at a time with a single point cutter. Today, I'm just set up for can grinding and I didn't think this would violate the spirit of the era toooooo much and sure saved a lot of time".

This is what a professional in a well-equipped shop can accomplish. All I can say is HOLY SMOKES!

Posted Image

Posted Image

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A 1973 Pooch Plus V is being created before our eyes in 2007 . . . Is this cool or what! 8)

Thank you, Joel :)

Rick Thigpen
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