3573 replies to this topic

[havlicek]

And one day we'll find the electric toothbrush that it supposedly powered...

Interesting info Don...thanks! In general, the motor is a very nicely engineered thing...even more so compared to the Mabuchi cans. The Mabuchi FT16D though is a MUCH more efficient package and I can see why it came to dominate. The GE brush arrangement is nice, but doesn't allow for easy spring tension changes. The GE is large too and the march towards smaller and smaller motors after the 36D left the GE as obsolete right out of the gate. The GE's bushings aren't much more than a simple brass ring with a small diameter. The GE has a short stack relative to the size of the motor.

On the plus side, the GE is made from nicer materials and the assembly seems much more precise. The GE's magnets are surprisingly strong and the one I worked on measured pretty much the same as a Mabuchi/Champion with Arcos. The commutator in the GE seems light-years ahead of the Mabuchi stuff...a beefy-strong piece with seemingly quite thick metal and phenolic. The GE is also seemingly almost made for opening up and either servicing or just working on. It's got a very nice arrangement where the same two screws that hold the spring/brush assemblies also hold the end bell. Remove the screws to remove the brushes and you've also taken out the screws that hold the end bell...no broken tabs...nice!

-john

[Prof. Fate]

Hi

John, some things are a matter of "time". In this case, if the motor had been on the market 2 years earlier, it would have been a wonder. But by the time it came out, not only were were doing arcos in 36ds with all sorts of custom winds to suit conditions, but had migrated to much smaller mass motors with the same magnet and even hotter winds.

These days, we choose to have the 67 era Dynamic GEs we have run against the 65 era 36ds we have. The problem is that with age, the 36ds are still easier to repair, replace.

Fate

[don.siegel]

Amen on all accounts Rocky!

Like the GE motor, the Globe/Versitec motors were much higher quality than the Mabuchi rewinds - but because they weren't designed to be worked on, with easy spring changes, etc., they quickly fell out of favor! I think manufacturers really underestimated this point in slot car motors.

Still, when you think that the SS91 with its 40K rpm, was already available in 1964...

John, if you thought the 7-pole Rams were fun, wait till you get a look inside a Globe...

Don

[havlicek]

John, if you thought the 7-pole Rams were fun, wait till you get a look inside a Globe...

Don

Oh I've been in there already Don...but only to visit, not to stay

-john

[Prof. Fate]

Hi

My friends, another aspect was "sweat equity"! I never could justify the costs of some of these things. I mean in 63 when there were no real options to a pittman or similar cost/quality, it was one thing. But in 64/5, a 20 buck 707 versus a 3 buck 36d and my doing hours of work on it, I could afford the time better than the money! Even better, I enjoyed the work.

The globe was the same thing in essence.

Or, as I like to tell the tale about the Pittman 6001. "in the day" the 26d was 2.50 locally, and the Pittcan was 3 times that! So, I raced heavily reworked 26ds. THEN, segway to the 90s when the collector price of the 26d was 45 bucks and the Pittcan was 4 bucks, my surviving 26d cars got pittcan replacements...which run pretty much without maintainence!

But the costs really mattered then.

Fate

[Victor Poulin]

But the costs really mattered then.

Fate
[/quote]


Still does Rocky, maybe even more so in these hard times right now. I think that's one of the reasons this and the motor building
thread are so popular. I feel that because of cost, more people are taking a second look at trying their hand at motor building and arm winding. I aso feel that retro racing is so popular for the same reasons. Its fairly simple, and low cost.

Also the rules are basic and easy to understand , but that's topic for a different thread lol.

Vic

[wbugenis]

John,

Just a word of thanks for the arm you wound for the 1/32 scale F-1 Eurosport motor. The arm pictured in post 2938. I took second place at the ISRA NE Championship race at Grand Prix Model Raceway this past weekend. It was a close race with some good drivers. First place and I finished on the same lap. Results are posted on the other board. I usually don't do this well against these guys - the motor gave me the advantage

Thanks again,

Bill

[havlicek]

John,

Just a word of thanks for the arm you wound for the 1/32 scale F-1 Eurosport motor. The arm pictured in post 2938. I took second place at the ISRA NE Championship race at Grand Prix Model Raceway this past weekend. It was a close race with some good drivers. First place and I finished on the same lap. Results are posted on the other board. I usually don't do this well against these guys - the motor gave me the advantage

Thanks again,

Bill

Hey Bill...thanks to you both for letting me know and for being so committed to developing these things! One step at a time...wax on, wax off

-john

[havlicek]

[/quote]


Still does Rocky, maybe even more so in these hard times right now. I think that's one of the reasons this and the motor building
thread are so popular. I feel that because of cost, more people are taking a second look at trying their hand at motor building and arm winding. I aso feel that retro racing is so popular for the same reasons. Its fairly simple, and low cost.

Also the rules are basic and easy to understand , but that's topic for a different thread lol.

Vic
[/quote]

Hi Vic,

Sure there's the economics to consider, but I think this is a small part of it all. People seem to really enjoy building stuff...specifically chassis for "retro", and they spend a lot of energy making all kinds of variations of different designs based loosely on what guys did years ago. Personally speaking (and I'm in the same economic boat as everyone else...believe me), economics has zero to do with it. Winding an arm and then building a motor and hearing/seeing it spin up is a great rush. It requires relatively few tools and a little bit of ingenuity, but the "reward" is pretty crazy. You could buy a spool of only say #29 wire, solder the tabs and have hours and hours of fun. Imagine the pride in building a nice chassis, painting a nice body and then installing a motor YOU wound...now imagine it's 1966! I can almost hear Sinatra singing "My Way"!

-john

[Pablo]

Amen. What a thrill to hear that little baby come to life and whistle like a dental drill on steroids

I'll state my case of which I'm certain.

I've lived a life that's full -
I've travelled each and every highway.
And more, much more than this,
I did it my way.

Regrets? I've had a few,
But then again, too few to mention.
I did what I had to do
And saw it through without exemption.

I planned each charted course -
Each careful step along the byway,
And more, much more than this,
I did it my way.

Yes, there were times, I'm sure you knew,
When I bit off more than I could chew,
But through it all, when there was doubt,
I ate it up and spit it out.
I faced it all and I stood tall
And did it my way.

I've loved, I've laughed and cried,
I've had my fill - my share of losing.
But now, as tears subside,
I find it all so amusing.

To think I did all that,
And may I say, not in a shy way -
Oh no. Oh no, not me.
I did it my way.

For what is a man? What has he got?
If not himself - Then he has naught.
To say the things he truly feels
And not the words of one who kneels.
The record shows I took the blows
And did it my way.

Yes, it was my way.

Sinatra.

[Victor Poulin]

Hahaha!!! I agree 100% with you John.
There's just something about firing up a motor that YOU built from scratch, and even better if it's a screamer
Even though I havent gotten in to winding my own arms yet, I still know exactly what you mean.

But with that said, you still have to look at the money savings that can be had by being able to do these things yourself
over time. If you figure that the average american 16-D arms sell around the 30-35 dollar range, that can really add up
quickly. Where as if you can wind your own, you can build one for under $15.00.

Vic

[havlicek]

For sure Vic...but it's not really a "cost savings" per se over your example of the American 16D arm because you couldn't race the homebrew arm against the 16D arm in a sanctioned race. Short of eurosports and other open classes and the thingie races, winding arms and building motors is just for the fun of it. It could happen where a local track allowed 16Ds and home wound arms in comparable setups (or even C-cans) to race against each other though...if enough people started tearing motors apart! I sometimes feel a little like Don Quixote (without a Sancho Panza).

-john

[havlicek]

Having a better idea of what might work for these Proxy races and enjoying seeing all the old style cars running, I set about to build a motor to keep aside for just such an event should one come up in the future. I built an arm using Bill Bugenis stacks (I put pieces of a couple together to get a .460" long stack) and one of his great coms. I was careful with selecting a shaft as well as how I oriented the lams (or rather chunks of lams since the stack was assembled from shorter stacks) to try and wind up with an arm as close to "natural balance" as I could manage. I wanted to go full-tilt boogie with this thing as I was probably a little too conservative with my Proxy 26D, so I chose a #28awg wind I have been working on for a little while for a Mabuchi setup. I was pretty confident that I could do a #28 that would be a torquey thing but with LOTS of revs as well...but you never know for sure how these things will work out until you dive in. The arm came out great and when I put it on my RGEO balance jig...I was unable to find any imbalance. I guess I got lucky!:


Of course, the next thing to do was get it in the setup to see if it ran the way I hoped it would. I stripped a 16D can, flattened the magnet tabs and filled the holes and dents with solder, drilled it for screws, removed the worn bushing and installed a 2mm x 5mm bearing. Then I gave it a coat of gloss white for that "French" look. For the endbell, I used one of the early Mura 16D endbells I had here. These things are an exact copy of a Mabuchi (I'm kinda surprised they didn't get the heck sued out of them...or maybe they did?) with two important differences. First, the material is excellent...very heat resistant and provides a strong base to screw the hardware into. Second, the bushing pocket molded into this endbell is large enough for a 5mm bearing unlike the Mabuchi or Tradeship endbells. To make sourcing brushes easier, I figured I had to use 36D brush tubes/"heatsinks"...the larger brushes would also be appropriate for the larger Bugenis com. Between the bearing's flange, the taller brush tubes and the wider com...it took a LOT of pretty heavy reworking to get the brush tubes to fit without shorting on the inside flange of the bearing. I had to notch the inside top of both tubes as well as heavily radius the inside of them before soldering them to the hoods...but it all fit (whew!). The endbell itself was in pretty rough shape, even after cleaning it up as best as I could, so I dyed it red to cover up things visually a little...it wound up coming out more of a burgundy color, but I like wine . I ground the tips of a set of D motor magnets so they could be installed with two clips and shimmed them up a little...around .014" per side. They measured around Arco territory and they completed the setup :


I stuck on a set of Mura light springs just because they were on my bench and fired it up to see how it runs and it's better than I even hoped for. This thing runs like crazy, drawing about 2+ amps and seems to have a whole bunch of troque and RPMs. Better yet, the couple of quick spins up to 12V I gave it proves that it pulls like nobody's business all the way up,,,really screaming at 12V. The wind sounded "on paper" like it shouldn't work this well, but the few test winds I did beforehand gave me hope and it's a real "mutha" that doesn't get too warm either...especially for the Mura endbell's much better heat resistance. I'm going to tear it all apart now to send it out for dynamic balancing. Just because I couldn't detect any imbalance, doesn't mean it isn't there and I want this motor to have the best shot at living I can give it. When I reassemble it, I'll give it a set of Camen medium springs and install some shunts. This is about as strong a motor I think you could possibly do in a Mabuchi setup and probably get to last in a race.

-john

[HarV Wallbanger III]

Look great John!

[Jairus]

How many turns of #28 did you do?

And, YES I agree it is indeed beautiful.

[havlicek]

Thanks guys

How many turns of #28 did you do?

...well a guy's gotta have at least some secrets no? PM sent.

-john

[don.siegel]

Can we make this into a Contest?

I say 38...

Beautiful motor John, and that white really does evoke the French motors - except for the purple endbell and the good ball bearings!

Did I miss what magnets went in there?

Don

[havlicek]

Hi Don,

Beautiful motor John, and that white really does evoke the French motors

I always liked the white cans on those motors. I might even make a sticker for this one with an oval that says "Czech" to put on the side of the can

Did I miss what magnets went in there?

I used a pair of D motor magnets. I have some Champion "Yellow Dots" that I could have used with some work, but I'm saving those.

Can we make this into a Contest?

I say 38...

...nope.

[havlicek]

...for Don, 'cuz he said:

Beautiful motor John, and that white really does evoke the French motors

-john

[don.siegel]

That's great John, a real tribute to one of the first rewinders ... and with a twist! You're a very handy guy...

Don

[havlicek]

Thanks Don. You know, I remember the motors vaguely and they seemed awfully cool and exotic to me as a kid. Of course, I didn't have any myself on a paper boy's pay...but I don't even know if they ran as great as they seemed like they should

I only know a little about the company, basically that they became ...or were somehow connected to Tradeship and that there was also some sort of incestuous relationship with Mura. If you or Philippe or both of you know some more details, it would be great to share them here when you get a chance. Who exactly was French, when did he start and what did he do...maybe even some glamour shots of the motors and techie/geeky details????

-john

PS...,if anyone looking in has any of these early Mura 16D end bells, I'll do some wind-for-trade biz with you!

[Pablo]

The book will be coming out soon, and will answer all questions

[don.siegel]

Actually, I'm supposed to be doing final copy-editing on the book this summer, so look for it by the end of the year, or early next year... but don't quote me!

I don't really know that much about French John, but I have a theory - just like I think that there was a single factory in Hong Kong making all the slot cars for all the different Hong Kong manufacturers, I think there was a single guy in a basement in California rewinding all the motors for all the California motor companies - he had a long beard and smoked cigarettes... and yes, he was French...

[havlicek]

Thanks for the photos Don.

I think there was a single guy in a basement in California rewinding all the motors for all the California motor companies - he had a long beard and smoked cigarettes... and yes, he was French...

Isn't that at least partially true of Mura later on, when they wound a bunch of arms that other companies rebadged? I don't know about the guy being French though Don.

-john

[tonyp]

I remember trying to run the French stuff back in 66 on our tracks. They never ran very well. Maybe they just were wound for more power? What worked best at the time was the aristocraft (polks) 3 volt armatures in a Russkit 23. Used those until I started to wind my own stuff.