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Arm winding #1

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#51 stoo23

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 07:47 AM

Well, as I have said before,..some damn Nice work here !!

Having been 'Bitten' by the whole Retro thing,..I Managed to 'Dig Up' a Whole Heap of My Real OLD Slot Car stuff,..and Lo and Behold,..I have Found My Very First,..
'Hand Wound',.."Proper" Race Arm,..that I spoke of in a Previous Post.

This was actually, a Great Arm and is One that,..considering it was My First serious attempt,..Waaaay Back when I guess I was Onl;y about 14 or 15, Ain't too Bad!
The Fact that it Ran Extremely Well,..(Especially for a Statically Balanced arm!!),..to the Point where I even 'Re Balanced it some years Later and Won another Race with it !!
It was,..Just 'One of those Arms',..You Know?,..the ones that Just Run 'Right' and Never Get too Hot !!,.. :D

It's a 20 of 25, wound with MURA Wire, Held together with MURA 'Team Cukras Epoxy' !!

At the time, one of the Local Pro's,..(Steve Hutcheson), helped and gave me advice on Winding and actually 'Assisted' in MY Static Balance of the Arm at His Place, using His Balance Edge set up that He had Made and was Excellent.

When I First Started Racing,..'Hutcho' as he was known, wound Amazing Motors!,..Quite Often Long Stacks as that was The Norm in That era, with the weight of the Cars and with Our Tracks/Power etc , he even made his own Comm welder and was one of the Few who you would let True the Comm for you,..almost Unheard of waay back by the average racer,..lol

Oh what Memories opening Up THAT Box of Old slot car bits has brought back !!,.. :) :) :)
Stoo :)

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Stewart Amos

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#52 Bill from NH

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 11:55 AM

Nice looking arm Stew! If it weren't for the balance holes, I'd have thought I was looking at an old Mura factory wound arm. If you were to get it reconditioned, it'd probably still be runable. :)

Bill Fernald
 

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#53 havlicek

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 04:09 PM

Hi Stew,

Yeah...nice looking arm alright! Why not do as Bill suggested and get it cleaned-up and run it? Better yet...why not wind some new ones? :) Thanks for sharing the pictures!

-john
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#54 stoo23

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 06:32 PM

Hey Thanks Bill and John,

Actually, come to think of it, it Wasn't My First Arm,..But the First Serious 'C' Can Arm,..as ,.. Much like yourselves, I had been De-Winding,..and Winding My 26D's !!

It was because of My 26D's, that Hutcho offered to Help out,..I found an even Older Long Stack Arm, (probably a Mabuchi), that has let all 'The Magic Smoke' get out,..rofl,..

As to the arm,..Unfortunately,..as one can Note from the Pics, the Comm Has been Trued the odd once or twice!,..lol and Sadly, one of the Comm Segments is Just starting to Lift on One side ,..Near the Base. Sad Really, as it Would be Nice to 'Spin her up' again!!

Guess i WILL Just have to Wind some New ones!!,..lol
I still have Hutcho's Associated Winder (although He wants it Back), and Rolls of MURA Wire, blanks and Kirkwood Comms!

:)
Stewart Amos

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#55 havlicek

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Posted 13 October 2008 - 12:33 PM

Here's a nice #25 awg on a new Mura blank and com. Spins really nice. :)

Blank: New Mura
Overall Length: 1.102"
Diameter: .512"
Stack Length: .465"
Resistance: approx. .2 ohm

Posted Image

-john
John Havlicek

#56 havlicek

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Posted 14 October 2008 - 05:20 AM

I see people are looking so I should add that the arm looks like it will settle-in at a bit under 4 amps @12 volts. On this one, the arm blank was coated with hi temp epoxy over the powder coating done by Mura and of course epoxied with the same hi-temp epoxy after being wound and tied. Shaft extension is good for either can or endbell drive.

-john
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#57 Horsepower

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Posted 14 October 2008 - 11:16 PM

John, you are really becoming an armature artist! :wub: Did that epoxy company ever send you a sample kit? The name of the company escapes me right now. Was it Duralco? I applied for a sample way back but they never sent it. :angry: It doesn't matter now because I can't do anything anyway. :( Just wondering which epoxy you were using...... :) Did I say becoming? You ARE the artist! :dance4:
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#58 Jairus

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Posted 15 October 2008 - 12:21 AM

In all my years of building slot cars... I have to say that John is indeed the best! :)

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#59 stoo23

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Posted 15 October 2008 - 01:09 AM

You Know,..I have this Feeling that it is Monsanto,..that actually Make that Wonderful Hi Temp Phenolic Resin that I had Years ago !!,..Certainly worth checking out,..as I seem to remember I was sent a 'Sample' that would have lasted a Few Generations !!!,..lol
Stewart Amos

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#60 stoo23

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Posted 15 October 2008 - 02:09 AM

Yes,..I Must agree,..once again,..Beautiful Work !!

You Most definitely Have Started Me thinking again !!!,..lol

After Further 'Digging' in the Parents Garage,..I Finally Found the Old Winder,. an old Associated one I think,....(that actually Does belong to Steve Hutcheson), so I just Might have to Wind a few up, Just for the heck of it, I have quite a few rolls of Mura wire and plenty of Short and Long blanks with Kirkwood Comms,..so,..:):)

Not so sure I can be Bothered Statically Balancing them though !!! and I don't think I still have any 'poxy' !!!

But wrapping wire around stacks always was a rather Zen Like excercise !!!,..:):)

Hey I also found and OLD 26D arm,..must be a #29 or something, unbalanced, but epoxied, with No wrapping,..would Probably have Been a Time Bomb !!,..I was using Clip in Motors and usually had a Few for a Race !!!,..lol Pic Below,..
OH and I also Found a Nice Looking #27,..that still has the Wire Spool attached and ONLY 2 Poles Wound !!!,..WTF ???,..I wonder Just How Many turns are on there?,..DOH !!

As it Must be Over 20 Years,..it kinda Does make me Wonder why I Never finished it !!

Cheers,.. :)

Apologies for 'dodgy' pics, but apart from the Winder,..the others aren't That Worthy!,..lol

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Stewart Amos

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#61 havlicek

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Posted 15 October 2008 - 06:06 AM

John, you are really becoming an armature artist! Did that epoxy company ever send you a sample kit? The name of the company escapes me right now. Was it Duralco? I applied for a sample way back but they never sent it. It doesn't matter now because I can't do anything anyway. Just wondering which epoxy you were using...... Did I say becoming? You ARE the artist!


Hi Gary and thank you! I don't know about the artist thing, but I am persistent and try to pay attention to details anyway. The armature thing is really a whole area of building a person can get lost in. There is also a bit of "magic" involved where you can do everything exactly the same, yet some arms have that extra little something when I run them to check the results. That's part of the fun for me though.

Yes on the epoxy. I'm using Duralco 4461 with a 500 degree rating and it's nice stuff. It has a VERY low working viscosity and penetrates the windings beautifully. In fact, if you don't apply enough, it seems to disappear from the surface of the stack quickly. Of course, I'm using kevlar to tie the things ans the Duralco also penetrates the kevlar completely and quickly. Anyone who has worked with composites will tell you that full-wetting is really important in achieving the most strength in the finished product and the 4461 is great in this regard. Thanks again.

Hi Jairus,

I think you're one of those builders here that hangs in some pretty rarified company so even though I would disagree strongly, I'll just say thank you! :)

Hi Stoo,

I think my quest for a suitable epoxy is pretty well over (thank heaven!), as the Duralco 4461 seems about ideal because of the many qualities it has that fit the bill. There are even higher rated epoxies (Cotronics has some as well besides their "Duralco" brand), but they require curing schedules that would make them difficult for general users and either color or viscosity may not be ideal. The 4461 has good characteristics in all four areas...hi temp, low viscosity, very clear and a relatively easy cure schedule.

Very cool to see you have the stuff to get winding and I agree that wrapping stacks is indeed a "zen" like thing! I wish more people would "rediscover" the whole thing like you, because it really takes you back to wind an arm and hear the thing whistle. Heck...even the ones that don't quite work out remind me of the many I did as a kid I had to toss and those I just chalk up to fun and learning. With some patience and a bit of practice, you can get entirely useable/satisfactory results static-balancing these things too...so don't let that stop you. Go for it!

I think that even though they are difficult, I really like doing the heavy winds best...#23, #24 and #25. The torque and revs you can get are pretty astonishing at 12V, even in a run-of-the-mill modern C can setup with no special care having been taken as far as "blueprinting" is concerned. This stuff is fun!

-john

PS...I have a #24 that I consider a "second" as I nicked a wire :shok: :unsure: :blink: I've tested it (as I do always) at full revs/no load and it seems fine so if anyone's interested in it...I can let it go cheap.
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#62 Steve Deiters

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Posted 15 October 2008 - 07:55 AM

I'm curious. I've been following this thread for a while and I was wondering of any of these winders are using vacuum chambers after they apply the uncured epoxy to assue penetration into all of the windings down to the laminations?

#63 havlicek

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Posted 15 October 2008 - 08:20 AM

Hi Steve,

I can't answer for anyone else, but my answer is NO. See my post above about the low-viscosity/penetration characteristics of the epoxy I use. For me, this is one of those things that come under "the proof is in the pudding" heading. First off...the epoxy is going somewhere when it disappears from the surface of the winds, presumably deep into the coil. How deep?...beats me, but the result is a solid coil that seems to hold up fine under the severe rotational forces that are present. Is there an advantage in real terms as far as durability is concerned when using a vacuum bag or chamber over simply applying the epoxy and letting it do it's thing?...beats me, but I suspect if there is it's probably not significant. Others will surely disagree, and that's what makes a horserace.

-john
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#64 Prof. Fate

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Posted 15 October 2008 - 11:18 AM

Hi

Don't worry abut the epoxy "disappearing". The epoxy isn't some sort of barrier or shield. Quite the opposite, the reason you don't see "bubblegum" typ epoxy apps for more than a few months in the 60s was we all realized we were STUPID!

Lots of coverage actually holds the heat in the wind. You will find that the "disappeared" epoxy is still holding the winds, but will run longer/cooler. And weigh less.

In 68/9, when the group 12 rules just said an unbalenced arm, we would use more exoxy as a way to balence the wind without showing.

Anyway, back in the day, most tracks had one or two builders, and in several tracks, there might be one arm winder after about 66 or so. The short version is that the motor geeks were even more unusual than the chassis builders.

I suspect that part of the problem was that a lot of the motor information in the mags was just wrong. Most, I think, in the peak of the fad were written by my friend Bob Schliecher. He has zero technical understanding. Everything he wrote was based on his understanding of what someone told him.

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#65 havlicek

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Posted 15 October 2008 - 11:34 AM

Don't worry abut the epoxy "disappearing".


Hi Rocky,

As I said above, I'm not worrying (?) about the epoxy disappearing...rather that tells me that it is indeed penetrating the coils/winds because of it's low viscosity exactly as I want it to.

-john
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#66 havlicek

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Posted 19 October 2008 - 05:10 PM

A #25 awg on a vintage Mura blank with Kirkwood com. This arm blank was assembled from two really short stack blanks...kinda difficult to do without totally screwing both arms up, but I worked out a system that did OK. Not the prettiest arm, but it sure does spin like the devil and doesn't get too warm or draw much current. Seems like it will settle-in at around 3 amps or so.

Posted Image

-john
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#67 Jairus

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Posted 19 October 2008 - 06:39 PM

Very pretty! Love you experimenting, keeps the knife sharp...

Did you get your car back?
I am going to need an arm for the 2009 proxy soon. Something not too hot... about 3 - 4 amps but tied and balanced. Can drive or endbell makes no difference. Has to last 4 or 5 races on mostly fairly large American style tracks without any maintenance. Chassis will be heavy brass rod with lead added. 4 to 1 gear ratio. You game my friend...?
Oh, and no hurry either. ;)

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#68 Ron Hershman

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Posted 19 October 2008 - 07:13 PM

I'm curious. I've been following this thread for a while and I was wondering of any of these winders are using vacuum chambers after they apply the uncured epoxy to assue penetration into all of the windings down to the laminations?


I do. :) Some dip, some brush, some trickle. Vacuum impregnation is the best method, if done correctly.... and all commercial arm companies do this. Not sure who was the first to ever do it, but Bob Green figured it out pretty early.

#69 havlicek

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Posted 19 October 2008 - 09:26 PM

Hi Jairus,

Did you get your car back?


Yes I did and there's a problem...the cars I painted look shabby now in comparison :shok: It looks even better in person Jairus! :wub:

I am going to need an arm for the 2009 proxy soon. Something not too hot... about 3 - 4 amps but tied and balanced. Can drive or endbell makes no difference. Has to last 4 or 5 races on mostly fairly large American style tracks without any maintenance. Chassis will be heavy brass rod with lead added. 4 to 1 gear ratio. You game my friend...?


Absolutely...I have just the thing for you and will get going as soon as some "special stock" arrives ;) Just let me know what can it's going in.

-john
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#70 havlicek

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Posted 20 October 2008 - 11:49 AM

Jairus,

How's this work for you? It's a #28 sgl. on a vintage Mura blank with Kirkwood com. Draws only about 2.3 amps, resistance is around .3 ohms-ish, timing is +17 and it runs cool. Wound more for longevity than barn-burning :)

Posted Image

-john
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#71 Jairus

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Posted 20 October 2008 - 02:13 PM

Sorry, I didn't get back to you sooner. The can is a 1968 Champion one hole 16D. Endbell is an NOS Champion white with heat sinks and spring protectors.
The arm looks BEAUTIFUL as usual! The car will be brass rod with a "BatCar" body by Gene.

Mongo happy!
:D

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#72 havlicek

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Posted 20 October 2008 - 03:18 PM

Cool Jairus...the arm should pop right in. Depending on how you like to set them up, you may (or may not) want to shim the mags a little and I think the arm will be a really good match for your purpose. It's on the way with a little extra "goody" in there :)

-john
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#73 idare2bdul

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 12:57 AM

Rocky's point about the ratio of motor guys to chassis guys is well taken. The learning curve could be pretty steep with the older motors you often didn't just lose the arm it would take the endbell with it. As a kid I was reluctant to risk that kind of money loss.

Complicating things further was the fact that wire size, timing, can design and magnets all were inter-related performance factors. If you picked up a motor theory book from the library it was in technical jargon a kid wouldn't understand and by the early can era we were doing things with motors that would have horrified an electrical engineer. Take a look at some of the modern G7 or Eurosport motors, they aren't a whole lot bigger than the old Tyco HO motors yet some go 40 minutes of racing at serious speeds.
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#74 havlicek

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 05:13 AM

Where I ran as a kid, there were a good number of guys winding motors. Actually, motors and motor parts (Mabuchi anyway) were pretty cheap, even on a paperboy's salary which was a good thing since the Mabuchi stuff was guaranteed to self-destruct almost regardless of what you did (I don't remember winding anything other than Mabuchis). The problem back then for me was that everyone was secretive and almost nobody shared information. When we started seeing "commercial" rewinds showing up later on, we would guess at what we could from looking at those arms as well. The good news was that the tracks all carried arm blanks, magnet wire (ooooh...and the silver stuff too) and winding machines. Because nobody shared information, it was all a matter of try...burn...try...explode...try...melt...try...YEAH! (then melt) etc. Building knowledge was frustrating, but fun for me anyway. Now with the internet and all, people can MUCH more easily give this stuff a try.

-john
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#75 stoo23

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 06:39 AM

Yeah,..I agree,..I was Really Lucky,..in having access to Steve Hutchesson, who apart from Winding Beautiful Motors and being Very Very Good at all things armature and Motor,..Plus I had a Family friend who was a very good Emgineer and a pretty plugged in Guy and Really helped me understand the Whole cocept.

As you say,..way back,..guys Were fairly secretive,..but some were always ready with some help and encouragement,..for that I thank them.

Plus working at the track when you are a kid,..sure helps !!!,..:)

Hey,..How many Turns on That #28 ??

I was thinking a Single or two in That Guage or a double might be Fun!!

I had a few 2728 and 28 dbls that worked Real well for me Way back,..Especially in 36D land,..I had a particular #25 wind and a 29/29 double that used to Really Scream !!! and almost laso 2 or 3 brackets before Melting !!!,..:)
Stewart Amos

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