Jump to content




Photo

Arm winding #1

Closed due to length

  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
3573 replies to this topic

#101 havlicek

havlicek

    OCD Rewinder

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,781 posts
  • Joined: 20-August 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NY

Posted 08 November 2008 - 05:10 PM

...gotcha, but I haven't even gotten that far (well...actually I have just finished a #24 and it sounds pretty sweet). I was only commenting on the design aiding the winding process.

-john
John Havlicek




#102 havlicek

havlicek

    OCD Rewinder

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,781 posts
  • Joined: 20-August 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NY

Posted 08 November 2008 - 05:46 PM

...here's a #24 awg done on a Mura .007" blank. I also tried a new pattern on this one after screwing-around a little. It sounds very hot.

Posted Image

-john
John Havlicek

#103 Michael Rigsby

Michael Rigsby

    SRT Motorsports

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,913 posts
  • Joined: 27-July 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:a Southern state

Posted 08 November 2008 - 08:40 PM

John, that is an absolutely gorgeous armature. A true piece of craftsmanship. :wub:

Michael Rigsby
"... a good and wholesome thing is a little harmless fun in this world; it tones a body up and keeps him human and prevents him from souring." - Mark Twain

#104 Phil Irvin

Phil Irvin

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,764 posts
  • Joined: 21-July 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Wesley Chapel, FL

Posted 08 November 2008 - 09:29 PM

:wub:

Now THAT one is beautifulllll....You out did your self. A CNC winder couldn't do any better....NICE

PHIL ;)

#105 Tex

Tex

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,803 posts
  • Joined: 07-July 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Denton, TX

Posted 08 November 2008 - 10:28 PM

Big, fat wires laying nice and parallel..... MMMmmmmm.
Richard L. Hofer

Remember, two wrongs don't make a right... but three lefts do! Only you're a block over and a block behind.

#106 Jairus

Jairus

    Body Painter Extraordinaire

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,994 posts
  • Joined: 16-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Salem, OR

Posted 08 November 2008 - 11:20 PM

Swweeeetttt! :wub:

Jairus H Watson - Artist
Need something painted, soldered, carved, or killed? - jairuswtsn@aol.com

www.slotcarsmag.com

www.jairuswatson.net
http://www.ratholecustoms.com
Check out some of the cool stuff on my Fotki!


#107 havlicek

havlicek

    OCD Rewinder

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,781 posts
  • Joined: 20-August 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NY

Posted 09 November 2008 - 06:27 AM

Thanks guys.

Michael,

At this point, I'm almost embarrased to say how much time and effort goes into one of these things...not to mention material costs. I'm even more embarrased to say I'm still working on improving these things :blink: :blush: , and there are still details I'm looking at :shok:

Phil,

The visual difference in this arm is due to the different pattern I used. It's not as efficient at making use of the available space on each pole and places the coils further away from the pole face on each succeeding layer so I don't know that it has any mechanical advantages, but it makes the top and bottom of the poles neater. The sides of the poles are the easy part :blink:

Tex,

Yup...American horsepower, East Coast style (although I hear everything's bigger in Texas!) :laugh2:

Jairus,

Thanks buddy. It's a real retro amp-sucker. :) Probably could do double duty as the starter motor for an F series pickup :D

-john
John Havlicek

#108 Jairus

Jairus

    Body Painter Extraordinaire

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,994 posts
  • Joined: 16-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Salem, OR

Posted 09 November 2008 - 09:34 AM

Now that you have the winding figured out and down pat... you could study what the vintage arm makers did that set them apart and create some nice replicas.
Thorp used Perolithic spacers between the stacks. (I can send you a picture if you like.
Certus used sheet metal drills for balancing and green colored end of stack spacers for instance.

It would be really cool to gob up a lesser looking wind with some green gooey epoxy and make a vintage looking bubble gum arm that WON'T blow apart.

Bet we could get some of the vintage arm winders to chime in on the details and provide pictures.

Jairus H Watson - Artist
Need something painted, soldered, carved, or killed? - jairuswtsn@aol.com

www.slotcarsmag.com

www.jairuswatson.net
http://www.ratholecustoms.com
Check out some of the cool stuff on my Fotki!


#109 havlicek

havlicek

    OCD Rewinder

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,781 posts
  • Joined: 20-August 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NY

Posted 09 November 2008 - 10:31 AM

Hi Jairus,

I figure that it would be cool to someday have my arms be recognizeable...maybe even desireable (hey...you never know!) on their own. I always put the "H" thing on them for that reason. I'm not really interested in trying to do replicas, and the great winders of the past arms stand on their own today as well as they did decades ago although they're probably getting a little fragile at this point. If someone wants an arm wound or rewound, all they have to do is ask...but it will come out looking like one of mine in the end :unsure: ;)

-john
John Havlicek

#110 Prof. Fate

Prof. Fate

    a dearly-missed departed member

  • Member at Peace
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,580 posts
  • Joined: 20-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Salt Lake City, UT

Posted 09 November 2008 - 11:10 AM

Hi

I don't know about survivors. The "Plus/Minus" of then was that any arm was probably being run that weekend after being done, if it worked it got raced once, twice at best. If it didn't it got stripped or tossed. I have a couple surviving NOS arms from when the last local raceway suddenly crashed, and by the time I moved to Denver, no one was running G.7s. Later P and strap cans with the different interal sized weren't using the old 512s we were building.

I can LOOK for oldies, being a pack rat, but I am not sure. I still have blanks and spacers and the like, but not sure about others.

Fate
Rocky Russo
3/6/48-1/1/12
Requiescat in Pace

#111 Jairus

Jairus

    Body Painter Extraordinaire

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,994 posts
  • Joined: 16-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Salem, OR

Posted 09 November 2008 - 12:32 PM

John,
I can certainly understand your wanting to forge your own path and reputation. In my humble opinion, you are doing just that.
What I was suggesting is what has happened to me... in that, my skills have been utilized replicating vintage paint and chassis. In some cases requested without my mark/signature! Just one feature of my services only, not the only talent I have in my arsenal. I still paint and build to my own drummer....

I know you and I have talked about this in PM's, I was simply bringing it out in the open to see what the board felt.
Now, I will shut up about it... :)

Jairus H Watson - Artist
Need something painted, soldered, carved, or killed? - jairuswtsn@aol.com

www.slotcarsmag.com

www.jairuswatson.net
http://www.ratholecustoms.com
Check out some of the cool stuff on my Fotki!


#112 havlicek

havlicek

    OCD Rewinder

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,781 posts
  • Joined: 20-August 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NY

Posted 09 November 2008 - 01:06 PM

Rocky,

I still see a bunch of absolutely gorgeous arms in Rick's builds and others from time to time. They're apparently still "out there", but after three or four decades are probably getting a bit fragile.

Hi Jairus,

I totally understand what you're saying and sure appreciate the insight. Still (and like the song says)..."I gotta be me" :laugh2: Anyway, I don't see this as having real business potential...more just something I really enjoy doing.

-john
John Havlicek

#113 LindsayB

LindsayB

    On The Lead Lap

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 231 posts
  • Joined: 11-August 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sydney, Australia

Posted 21 November 2008 - 03:14 PM

Like Stoo - I also used to wind arms - not quite as well,

Question, how do you solder the wires to the com ?

That was what always seemed to be the issue for me, in the end we just ended up crimping and not soldering.
Lindsay Byron

#114 havlicek

havlicek

    OCD Rewinder

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,781 posts
  • Joined: 20-August 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NY

Posted 22 November 2008 - 08:08 AM

Hi Lindsay,

Arm winding has been a real "journey" this time around for me. Just finding a high temperature epoxy that was available in small quantities was a problem. On the com tabs, I've been using silver solder...being careful to scrape away the insulation from the magnet wire where it passes over the tabs. Still...I had an arm fail recently for someone I sent some to exactly at the com tabs. I haven't seen the arm afterwards, but tend to think the solder joint must have been bad rather than the solder actually having melted off the com tabs. I went back and looked at how I solder the tabs (I also crimp them before soldering) and have started to tin the inside of the tabs before soldering as a way to make sure that there is a solid joint. With not enough people using my arms to get a sense of whether this will make a difference, it's hard for me to know whether I'm on the right track. There's another person from here who has done some slot drag racing with a couple of my hotter arms and hasn't had failures...but those runs are very short.

Of course, the best way to make this connection would be to crimp and weld but I haven't been able to come up with an economical and reliable/repeatable way to accomplish this. The precision welding machines I've seen that are used for this application in industry are very expensive and rather large. There are many homemade spot-welding rigs out there that people have put on the web made out of various found items like discarded microwave oven transformers and car alternators with motors driving them that aren't applicable for various reasons. I even posted a question at a welding forum for hobbyists and (I think) pros...but got no response. I think because this is very different from welding a garden trellis or heavy gauge steel machine parts. This is a low-amp and precise (the parts are very small and made of brass and copper) application that I don't think many home-welders would even be interested in. The best (especially in this economy) solution would be some sort of homemade device that's small/cheap/controllable and will produce repeatable results. If it's out there...I haven't seen it, but I'm looking!

-john
John Havlicek

#115 LindsayB

LindsayB

    On The Lead Lap

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 231 posts
  • Joined: 11-August 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sydney, Australia

Posted 22 November 2008 - 11:17 PM

I was just curious because that is where most of my failures were, they would go good for 10 or 15 laps then throw the solder.

The guy that Stoo talked about had some method using a carbon element and silver solder wire ground to a point. I once spoke to one of the better arm winders around and he while not giving too much away said that he basically had an alloy heat sink that the com sat in that just left the tab exposed.

I would expect that something could be built along the lines of a pulse circuit to fire a relay using a carbon element (link inside some soldering irons) and a lot of amps (car battery) alloy heat sink and basically the silver solder (hard) as an electrode gound to a pin point.

Just a thought
Lindsay Byron

#116 havlicek

havlicek

    OCD Rewinder

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,781 posts
  • Joined: 20-August 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NY

Posted 23 November 2008 - 11:31 AM

Hi Lindsay,

I can envision such a thing, but don't have the electronics knowledge to build it without an "electronics-for-dummies" set of plans. Eliminating the car battery would be nice also for obvious reasons and the online plans for DIY welders using an old microwave oven transformer seem like a good way to go in that direction. What would be REALLY trick would be to somehow use a power supply such as the Trinity iPower I have. While voltage is low (same as a car battery)...there is up to 15 amps available, which is pretty significant. I don't know if that would work, but it sure would be cool for this application...sort of the same way the iPower (and similar supplies) can power other tools such as a com lathe. Since we're talking about very small spot welds...it seems reasonable???? This is where we sit back and wait for the electronics gurus to help out...anyone?

-john
John Havlicek

#117 LindsayB

LindsayB

    On The Lead Lap

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 231 posts
  • Joined: 11-August 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sydney, Australia

Posted 23 November 2008 - 11:53 AM

The electronics is simple, we just want to fire a relay with a single pulse, the relaycould be a standard relay as used for a blast relay, then we need a circuit to fire the relay, I guess a 555 chip should do this, with a pot to vary the pulse duration. I have not done electronic circuit design for 20 years so there is probably better stuff now. I will research some designs, yes this is a spot welder. Not sure about the Ipower as it may shut down too soon when it gets to full load and may not allow the correct pulse width.

Maybe an actual stick welder might be a better start, what we do is use it as the source and via relay just produce a controlled pulse of high amp power, I am expecting this will be all over after 10 milliseconds. Key thing would be to build a alloy heat sink for the com that just exposes one tab, with enough room to get a carbon heat source and a silver solder elcetrode on the tab, then foot contol switch to fire off the spot weld.

You need to get this very hot very quickly, which I think will need more than 15 amps.

Stoo if u read this what did hutco do.
Lindsay Byron

#118 havlicek

havlicek

    OCD Rewinder

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,781 posts
  • Joined: 20-August 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NY

Posted 23 November 2008 - 12:00 PM

Lindsay...you lost me with all that electronics talk :-)...but it sounds promising. On the iPower...it takes a noticeable split-second for it to trip when dead-short (full load) happens. I have no way of measuring that short of a time, but it seems possible and would be cool if it worked. Even if the plan called for starting with a regular welder as the supply...these can be had for relatively cheap even new. Designing a heat sink shouldn't be a problem as I would think it's pretty much simple fabrication. I'm guessing that the heat sink would also be the negative connection and the positive would just be some sort of thin rod/pin?...or not??? (told you I know nothing of these things :) )

-john
John Havlicek

#119 havlicek

havlicek

    OCD Rewinder

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,781 posts
  • Joined: 20-August 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NY

Posted 08 December 2008 - 07:37 PM

With some help from right here on the blog (thanks Lindsay) as well as some welding websites (people aren't always as helpful "out there" as they are here :blink: ) and from a whole lot of Google-searching, I've made significant progress on this. I've gathered most of the bits and pieces, made a nifty com-clamp-heatsink-terminal out of an extruded aluminum cable ferrule, got a few different carbon rods to play with...as well as a bunch of DC amperage at low voltage. So far, the process is working well and I think with a bit more experimenting as the rest of the bits come in, I'll be able to do this just fine. What a PITA :shok:

-john
John Havlicek

#120 Jairus

Jairus

    Body Painter Extraordinaire

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,994 posts
  • Joined: 16-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Salem, OR

Posted 08 December 2008 - 08:04 PM

PITA?
Dinner or lunch?
:D

Jairus H Watson - Artist
Need something painted, soldered, carved, or killed? - jairuswtsn@aol.com

www.slotcarsmag.com

www.jairuswatson.net
http://www.ratholecustoms.com
Check out some of the cool stuff on my Fotki!


#121 stoo23

stoo23

    On The Lead Lap

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 351 posts
  • Joined: 26-July 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sydney, Australia

Posted 09 December 2008 - 01:28 AM

Hi Lindsay, John,..and Other Arm Winders !!,..lol

Yeah, the Thing Hutcho used to Use, was also Somewhat Crude and Typically Brutal, Dangersous and Overkill in the Way ONLY Hutcho could be !!!
Like Lindsay was suggesting, Hutcho, used to Weld all his Coms, as Lindsay suggested, with a Certain type of Solder that he had sourced, that was a Particular type of High Temp stuff.
It May have been Silver Solder, but I seem to Recall, it was a kind of Dull Grey in Colour and was Very thin.

I Will have to ask him,..Heck as Hutcho IS rather computer literate, I will have to send him this Link, as I am SURE He and John could have a Great Chat !!!,..ROFL

Truly guys, Steve Hutcheson IS one of the Greats, the level of his workmanship and his creativity and innovative thought from Waaay back was a joy to behold and I Have NEVER driven Anyones Slot Car Motors that came Anywhere Near Steve's, Lindsay Can Vouch for that as I am sure So can almost anyone who raced against them !!!,..lol

Steve's machine actually used a Rather Large Old Welder, With Scary Capacity.
The Arm was Held in a Block/Jig he made for the Purpose, in a Vice, and actually Really Required Two people to use it, (I think he used to have it set up, but the last arm he did for me was done this way and he even welded some Pinions on for Fox when he kept melting them off !!)

He had as you say a Shaped Carbon Tip, that was applied to the Com, with the Ground being made through the Jig/Vice.

This was the Tricky Part, as One had to get the Timing AND Attachment and Removal of the Right Contact FIRST, or one could Blow the Arm/comm to Bits !!

All in all a Rather Scary and tricky Operation, which Hutcho seemed to Carry out in His usual Adept style !!

AND, this was Waaaay Back when Lindsay and I were just Kids and Even arms from the States were Just starting to be Welded.

Hutcho didn't Lose too many arms !!

I always wondered what some of his Motors would have been like Dynamically Balanced,..Mind you though, Much like John, I think Hutcho Kind of Had a Magic Touch with his Static Balance, as they Were Majic Motors and any arm he did for me, Sang Like a Bird !!!

Hey John, I have found one of My Older 1970's Chassis, One with Nickel Silver Pans which Lindsay probably remembers, and an almost New, (in fact the Can bearing hasn't even been soldered in) Green Can and endbell, so Perhaps I will have to Try and Melt the Solder off one of your Arms sometime !!!,..lol
Oh and send you one of Mine ofcourse !!,..lol
Stewart Amos

Old 'Phhtt' Racer from Sydney, Australia
FASTUFF Race Proven Products

#122 havlicek

havlicek

    OCD Rewinder

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,781 posts
  • Joined: 20-August 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NY

Posted 09 December 2008 - 06:40 AM

Jairus...breakfast lunch AND dinner :laugh2:

Hi Stewart,

The power supply I'm using is actually an automotive battery charger/motor starter. For the com connection, I've fashioned a sort of split-ring collar out of aluminum and the part that slips over the com has fins so it can act as a heatsink as well as an electrical connection. The outside of the piece is where the battery clamp from the starter attaches and the pressure from the clamp tightens the thing onto the com. For the other connection, I'm using the carbon rod from a carbon/zinc "D" cell battery (they're getting hard to find). I'm going to try some "C" cell maybe even "AA" cell rods if I can find them. I also had tried some fat graphite rods from large round pencils. They work also, but are fragile and the material doesn't work as well as the carbon from the batteries.

Part of my confusion here had been with the term "welding" the com tabs. Welding usually refers to applying enough heat to fuse the base metals with or without a filler metal. Spot welding (at least as far as I had known) refers to fusing the base metals directly with no filler metal by applying a short burst of heat to a point (electrical). While the process here is really silver brazing or "hard silver soldering". To add more to the confusion, this is really different from regular soft silver soldering such as what slot car builders use for some chassis work (around 400-450F using a solder alloy of between 2 and 5% silver). This stuff (hard silver soldering/brazing) takes place at around 1,200F and is more like what is used for jewelry and some dental work.

Then there are a few "in between" materials like "Solder-It" paste which is a paste of silver alloy and flux that will melt at 450F...but remelts at over 600F. Often the difference between brazing and soldering as I've seen them defined on the web is only one of temperature...soldering being a process that takes place up to around 400F-450F, and brazing anything above that. Again, you can find different people using the terms "welding", "brazing" and "soldering" almost interchangeably and even web definitions vary :blink: I think what we have here is called "resistive brazing" because of the heat source being an electrical heat element (the carbon rod) as opposed to an oxy/acetylene torch.

People also need to be a little careful when choosing silver wire (there's also silver paste with powdered silver and flux for approximately 1,200F brazing) since some grades also have some cadmium in them. Even though these connections are very small, cadmium produces toxic fumes when heated. Using pure silver wire and good ventilation seems preferable although it will take a bit more heat.

I'm sure the manufacturers have dedicated machines made for this process and they may even be doing actual spot-welds (?), but this all seems to be working fine as is. It would be really nice to install a timing relay on the power unit as has been suggested to get more uniform results, but I haven't a clue as to what relay to buy or how to install it, so I'm probably just going to continue doing this as I have been for now. Heat is sufficient to melt copper and brass if applied for long enough, but getting things heated sufficiently to melt the silver without melting the brass/copper isn't too hard so far (about a second or two of contact).

-john
John Havlicek

#123 Michael Rigsby

Michael Rigsby

    SRT Motorsports

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,913 posts
  • Joined: 27-July 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:a Southern state

Posted 09 December 2008 - 08:22 AM

John,

Don't know if it will be of use to you or not, but check here for jewelers solder and supplies. Look under the Jewelers supply tab and on the next page about three quarters of the way down on the right column you'll see the solders and pastes listed. I also reccommended this site to Rick B. for ceramic polishing media for tumbling since they are a lapidary and jewelers supply house, but they carry a nice selection of silver solders of varying melt temps at decent prices. If nothing else, it will be another source you can use. Also check out page two on soldering tools. They have a flameless soldering machine listed there that is somewhat like you are talking about for doing high temp jewelry brazing. May be just what you are looking for. Looks like it would work ok.

You make some of the most beautiful winds I've seen. Maybe one of these days I could afford to have
you wind me a custom X-12 arm.

Michael Rigsby
"... a good and wholesome thing is a little harmless fun in this world; it tones a body up and keeps him human and prevents him from souring." - Mark Twain

#124 stoo23

stoo23

    On The Lead Lap

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 351 posts
  • Joined: 26-July 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sydney, Australia

Posted 09 December 2008 - 08:54 AM

Custom X-12 arms !

Now there's a thought !!

I have a Heap of the Shorter Mura Blanks,..Whats a Custom X-12,..??,..ROFL
Heck for that Matter What Turns/Wire does an X-12 use anyway?

Answered myself, 50/29#
Stewart Amos

Old 'Phhtt' Racer from Sydney, Australia
FASTUFF Race Proven Products

#125 havlicek

havlicek

    OCD Rewinder

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,781 posts
  • Joined: 20-August 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NY

Posted 09 December 2008 - 10:34 AM

Hi Michael and thanks. I've seen most or all of those supplies while searching jewelry supply websites, as well as machines like that. The machines are basically doing the same thing as I'm doing and are no doubt more precise, but they cost a lot more than what I've set up. I've seen some beautiful industrial machines as well that will fit on a benchtop and do actual micro-welding (no filler metal)...for a few thousand bucks :)

On the arm thing, you'd be surprised at how cheap my arms are ;) Getting this last bit figured out will add a bit more time to the process and has added a little more equipment, but it will give me the peace of mind that I've done all I could to do a "professional" job.

-john
John Havlicek

#126 Michael Rigsby

Michael Rigsby

    SRT Motorsports

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,913 posts
  • Joined: 27-July 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:a Southern state

Posted 09 December 2008 - 09:22 PM

Custom X-12 arms !

Now there's a thought !!

I have a Heap of the Shorter Mura Blanks,..Whats a Custom X-12,..??,..ROFL
Heck for that Matter What Turns/Wire does an X-12 use anyway?

Answered myself, 50/29#


Stoo,

An X-12 is one of the classification of Group 12 arms for use in Box 12 wing car racing , uses 50 turns of 29 gauge wire, but the stack length is only .350 inches. Timing is normally either 38 degrees, or 42 degrees on the one's most commonly used, and can go as high as 46 degrees, though I know of no one using that high a timing in most of them. Stack diameter can be .510, .513, or .518 on some arms.

Michael Rigsby
"... a good and wholesome thing is a little harmless fun in this world; it tones a body up and keeps him human and prevents him from souring." - Mark Twain

#127 GTPJoe

GTPJoe

    On The Lead Lap

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 448 posts
  • Joined: 26-July 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Manch-Vegas NH

Posted 10 December 2008 - 12:06 PM

Michael,

X-12 arm diameters now go out to at least .540 and even maybe .560.

I know Monty at BOW got some .540 dia. arms approved recently for USRA racing.

See ya!
GTP Joe Connolly

In theory there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice there is.

#128 Michael Rigsby

Michael Rigsby

    SRT Motorsports

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,913 posts
  • Joined: 27-July 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:a Southern state

Posted 10 December 2008 - 12:41 PM

Michael,

X-12 arm diameters now go out to at least .540 and even maybe .560.

I know Monty at BOW got some .540 dia. arms approved recently for USRA racing.

See ya!



I believe the arms that Monty sent to USRA were Contender, Stinger (Super Wasp), and Super 16C
in the .540 diameter, and yeah, they were approved. According to an Addenum published in October, all
group 12 arms are allowed a max. diameter of .540, but this is for Division 2 only. I haven't seen a regular X-12 arm yet in the bigger diameter, only the SuperWasp, and then only from Bow, not the major suppliers like Pro Slot or Koford.

Michael Rigsby
"... a good and wholesome thing is a little harmless fun in this world; it tones a body up and keeps him human and prevents him from souring." - Mark Twain

#129 havlicek

havlicek

    OCD Rewinder

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,781 posts
  • Joined: 20-August 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NY

Posted 11 December 2008 - 01:59 PM

I finished some quick and dirty tests using some brass cut into thin/small strips and bent to simulate a com tab with a piece of magnet wire layed in.
Posted Image

Test #1 clearly shows the silver and I think it's a bit heavy (although this stuff is almost pure silver and should be a great conductor.

Test #2 is a neater job with the silver barely showing. This stuff melts/flows at around 1200F so I doubt there will be much trouble from these connections.

I made two carbon electrodes using "D" cell carbon/zinc batteries and shaped one down to test how their different sizes would affect the process. The larger carbon electrode is easier to control than the smaller one since it takes maybe 2 seconds to complete the "weld". The smaller one will almost melt the brass in that time and without some sort of timing relay to precisely control weld time, is too risky. Maybe if I get the timing setup sometime, I may try that one again for like 1/2 second or so.

I'm also showing the heatsink/negative electrode com connection thingie. When clamped with the negative lead, it tightens snugly around the com and should prevent any heat damage by siphoning-off heat. The whole process goes so fast that I don't know that the com would get that hot anyway, but it seems like a prudent measure to take.

I also did some tests with "SolderIt", which is a low temperature powdered solder/flux. It flows at only 450F, but will only remelt at over 600F. It works fine with an ordinary soldering iron and is probably good for really mild winds or even chassis work requiring extra strength (soldering-in a motor etc.), but I probably won't be using it for the com connections since brazing/welding with silver doesn't seem to be much of a problem.

***Note: The above is for informational purposes only. If someone tries this stuff and blows themselves up, tough luck :)
John Havlicek

#130 LindsayB

LindsayB

    On The Lead Lap

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 231 posts
  • Joined: 11-August 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sydney, Australia

Posted 11 December 2008 - 02:53 PM

I think getting the silver solder thin now is the key. I have heard of people running this thru a tool to extract it about the thickness of 22# piano wire.

Have u setup a foot operated relay yet. I will look around for some variable timing circuits.
Lindsay Byron

#131 Jairus

Jairus

    Body Painter Extraordinaire

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,994 posts
  • Joined: 16-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Salem, OR

Posted 11 December 2008 - 02:53 PM

The above was preformed by a professional on a closed course. Kid's don't try this at home... :laugh2:

All kidding aside, I am very impressed John! :)

Jairus H Watson - Artist
Need something painted, soldered, carved, or killed? - jairuswtsn@aol.com

www.slotcarsmag.com

www.jairuswatson.net
http://www.ratholecustoms.com
Check out some of the cool stuff on my Fotki!


#132 havlicek

havlicek

    OCD Rewinder

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,781 posts
  • Joined: 20-August 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NY

Posted 11 December 2008 - 03:32 PM

Hi Lindsay (and thanks again for pointing me in the right direction),

I don't see the diameter/gauge of the silver as a problem, I ordered the thinnest wire I could find and what I have here is pretty danged thin. I also have some of the same silver (so-called "EZ" grade that melts at a bit over 1200F) coming as a paste/flux combination. That way, I can put a bit on the com tab with a toothpick before I crimp it. That would free-up one of my hands since I wouldn't have to hold the silver...it would already be on there.

If you can show me a simple (ie...for dummies) way to wire the thing with a list of parts, I may just do that. I've got a HD momentary footswitch with 40A contacts coming which should be a help also.

Hi Jairus,

Nothing to be impressed about (but thanks!), especially compared to what you do! I just pestered Lindsay and some other folks until I was semi-clear on what I needed to accomplish and then spent a bunch of quality time on Google ;) I (ahem) think this should be the last bit as far as getting the armns up to snuff. Of course, I could start figuring out how to cap the coms also :shok: ...NAH! :laugh2:

-john
John Havlicek

#133 havlicek

havlicek

    OCD Rewinder

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,781 posts
  • Joined: 20-August 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NY

Posted 13 December 2008 - 02:19 PM

I had some sort of vintage EBD arm here that someone else had epoxied. I was able to carefully saw off the old magnet wire and figured this would make a good test for welding the com since I don't have any use for an endbell drive arm anyway. I put on a Kirkwood com (very little advance...around 10 or so), did a #25 wind and it all sounds fine and looks fine...although a little sloppy. Practice should help tighten things up, but what I was a little worried about (damaging the com) turns out not to have been a problem. If anything, the possibility of heat damage may be less doing it this way than soldering because it happens so quickly.

Posted Image

-john
John Havlicek

#134 Michael Rigsby

Michael Rigsby

    SRT Motorsports

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,913 posts
  • Joined: 27-July 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:a Southern state

Posted 13 December 2008 - 03:25 PM

Very nice looking arm, John. I would think, like you, that this would spread less heat through the arm since it does happen so quickly and less heat is always good. Looks like a good arm for a classic eb drive inline all brass chassis setup.

Michael Rigsby
"... a good and wholesome thing is a little harmless fun in this world; it tones a body up and keeps him human and prevents him from souring." - Mark Twain

#135 havlicek

havlicek

    OCD Rewinder

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,781 posts
  • Joined: 20-August 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NY

Posted 13 December 2008 - 04:46 PM

Very nice looking arm, John. I would think, like you, that this would spread less heat through the arm since it does happen so quickly and less heat is always good. Looks like a good arm for a classic eb drive inline all brass chassis setup.

Michael Rigsby


Thanks Michael. On the arm itself, I guess it might be but I don't personally have any use for it. I needed to actually try welding on a real arm instead of just pieces of brass...so it served my purpose :)

-john
John Havlicek

#136 Dan DeBella

Dan DeBella

    Pro Slot Ltd.

  • Full Member
  • Pip
  • 30 posts
  • Joined: 18-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Lowell, MI

Posted 14 December 2008 - 06:54 AM

Michael, We have been making x12 arms in .540 for well over a year now, along with SW, Cotender and big diameter 16C, 16D and S16D. Available at all of the distributors and in our catalogue. :)

#137 Jairus

Jairus

    Body Painter Extraordinaire

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,994 posts
  • Joined: 16-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Salem, OR

Posted 14 December 2008 - 10:26 AM

I can think of a use for that arm... ;)

Jairus H Watson - Artist
Need something painted, soldered, carved, or killed? - jairuswtsn@aol.com

www.slotcarsmag.com

www.jairuswatson.net
http://www.ratholecustoms.com
Check out some of the cool stuff on my Fotki!


#138 havlicek

havlicek

    OCD Rewinder

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,781 posts
  • Joined: 20-August 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NY

Posted 14 December 2008 - 11:23 AM

...say no more Jairus, it's on the way ;) For all I know, the original arm may have come from you anyway (I forget this stuff ) :blink: , so it's fitting if it makes the return trip. :)

-john
John Havlicek

#139 havlicek

havlicek

    OCD Rewinder

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,781 posts
  • Joined: 20-August 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NY

Posted 16 December 2008 - 07:55 PM

Here's a new one with all the doo-dads on a longer blank

-.007" lam arm

-welded com tabs

-approx 17 advance

-.490" stack (finished length approx .495")

-hi-temp epoxy

-#25 awg

Posted Image

-john
John Havlicek

#140 TSR

TSR

    The Dokktor is IN

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 41,308 posts
  • Joined: 02-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Mexifornia

Posted 16 December 2008 - 08:20 PM

John, you are getting better... :)

Philippe de Lespinay
 
"We are the D..., uh, the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile"


#141 Jairus

Jairus

    Body Painter Extraordinaire

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,994 posts
  • Joined: 16-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Salem, OR

Posted 16 December 2008 - 09:15 PM

Better? Better? Better?

He is the BEST! :D

Jairus H Watson - Artist
Need something painted, soldered, carved, or killed? - jairuswtsn@aol.com

www.slotcarsmag.com

www.jairuswatson.net
http://www.ratholecustoms.com
Check out some of the cool stuff on my Fotki!


#142 havlicek

havlicek

    OCD Rewinder

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,781 posts
  • Joined: 20-August 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NY

Posted 16 December 2008 - 09:19 PM

Merci beaucoup Philippe :) I'm nothing if not persistent. Thanks also Jairus...that EBD arm is on the way with some added goodies ;) .

-john
John Havlicek

#143 havlicek

havlicek

    OCD Rewinder

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,781 posts
  • Joined: 20-August 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NY

Posted 28 December 2008 - 03:37 PM

I forget where I saw it, but someone posted a picture of a Pooch #26awg here a while back so I wrote down the wind did the same here on a new Mura .007" blank. The com welding is a little sloppy, but I'll refine that as I go. I've also figured out a better way to polish the stack that I used here. So bit by bit...

Posted Image

-john
John Havlicek

#144 havlicek

havlicek

    OCD Rewinder

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,781 posts
  • Joined: 20-August 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NY

Posted 01 January 2009 - 02:44 PM

I just did this #24 and when spinning it up, it sounded rough and was drawing almost 7 amps. It also was arcing noticeably at the com, a sure sign that something isn't right. When I put it in the com lathe and marked the com with a sharpie, the first pass revealed that the com was pretty far out. A few passes later, it looked fine and this time it spinned smooth and current draw was down to around 3.7 amps. Considering the cost even of the raw materials for winding these things let alone the time involved, the Xipp com lathe has been a really useful tool!

Posted Image

-john
John Havlicek

#145 Jairus

Jairus

    Body Painter Extraordinaire

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,994 posts
  • Joined: 16-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Salem, OR

Posted 01 January 2009 - 03:25 PM

John,
You are the best to be sure. If we had a true RETRO series to play with you would be KING of the ARM WINDERS! :give_rose:

I have three silver wire re-wound arms here purchased in a trade... would you consider testing for me?

Jairus H Watson - Artist
Need something painted, soldered, carved, or killed? - jairuswtsn@aol.com

www.slotcarsmag.com

www.jairuswatson.net
http://www.ratholecustoms.com
Check out some of the cool stuff on my Fotki!


#146 havlicek

havlicek

    OCD Rewinder

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,781 posts
  • Joined: 20-August 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NY

Posted 01 January 2009 - 04:53 PM

Hi Jairus,

It's easy to be good at something (relatively speaking) when you're the only one doing it :blink: I've tried my best to get other folks back into winding, but have only had really limited success. It seems clear that people will be most interested only in what they can run in a sanctioned race. Not many people who'll build stuff just to run for the heck of it. On the arms themselves, I'd love to come up with another affordable source for blanks and coms but have totally struck out besides Mura. It could be that the cost is keeping the few people who are interested from trying their hand at it again. Even some nice used arms that haven't been balanced and epoxied for rewinding would be cool if the stacks and coms are good quality. It was great when all this stuff was "off the shelf" at your local track/hobby center.

Sure I'd check those arms for you, but there isn't much to that unless you also want me to cut the coms and give them a spin. The epoxy on some of those old arms is probably getting brittle by now, so I'd go slow. Oh yeah, I don't have any 26D setups either.

-john
John Havlicek

#147 Prof. Fate

Prof. Fate

    a dearly-missed departed member

  • Member at Peace
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,580 posts
  • Joined: 20-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Salt Lake City, UT

Posted 02 January 2009 - 11:50 AM

Hi

John, I still wind. Have to to keep the oldies running! One of the reasons I can call to mind what winds and when in our conversations. However, even IN the day, almost everyone bought arms rather than wind. In the day, winding helped pay for my program by selling arms. I only knew two other people in my area with thousands of racers who wound.

When someone said "I got a rewind" it was that they had bought an obsolete kit with the 1 buck "dyna rewind" upgrade!

I have told the story that the first arm I used that wasn't my wind was a Bob Green arm in about 70. When I talked to Bob years later, I framed it as a compliment!

I LIKE building. Racing is extra credit.

Fate
Rocky Russo
3/6/48-1/1/12
Requiescat in Pace

#148 Jairus

Jairus

    Body Painter Extraordinaire

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,994 posts
  • Joined: 16-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Salem, OR

Posted 02 January 2009 - 11:57 AM

I LIKE building. Racing is extra credit.


Agreed! :D

Jairus H Watson - Artist
Need something painted, soldered, carved, or killed? - jairuswtsn@aol.com

www.slotcarsmag.com

www.jairuswatson.net
http://www.ratholecustoms.com
Check out some of the cool stuff on my Fotki!


#149 Bill from NH

Bill from NH

    Age scrubs away speed!

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,083 posts
  • Joined: 02-August 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:New Boston, NH

Posted 02 January 2009 - 12:30 PM

I like building too, but much of mine is woodworking. :)

Bill Fernald

Do bald men get lice?


#150 havlicek

havlicek

    OCD Rewinder

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,781 posts
  • Joined: 20-August 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NY

Posted 02 January 2009 - 12:52 PM

Hi Rocky,

I think we've sort of touched on this before, but in the mid to late 60's (the timeframe is a guess) a whole bunch of my friends and I were winding everything we could get our grubby little hands on. We had a pretty nifty little competitive thing going on trying to one-up each other. While I ran at one particular place in Queens NY, we did travel around a little and every place we went they had armature blanks, coms, wire and the crank winders for those who wanted them. Even a couple of years later when I moved to Long Island and went Phaze III in Farmingdale, all the stuff was there for winding even though the hot factory "rewinds" were all over the place. Of course, more people bought "rewound" arms than did them themselves...but a LOT of people also bought scratchbuilt chassis too (Roy was the first guy I saw that tumbled chassis). Good quality blank arms were cheap then, I shoulda stocked-up!

-john
John Havlicek





Electric Dreams Online Shop