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Arm winding #1

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#76 havlicek

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 08:07 AM

Hi Stoo,

Depending on the arm, advance, setup and intended use...I go anywhere from 39-42 turns of #28. You can go higher on a modern blank as there's lotsa room with the thin cross section on those, but I don't see the point. Double 28's work real well, but I don't know that the hassle of a double 28 is worth it over a single #25. I've done some double #26's that were really nice too, but double winds are really a pain in the posterior :) I think single 26/27/28 winds can be really useful and a nice balance between the amp-sucking big winds and the wimpy winds used until magnets, coms and endbells caught-up, although 26 is starting to get up there.

-john
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#77 stoo23

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 08:29 AM

Sorry,..I Said 36D Land,..I Meant 26D !!,..Doh !!
Although I Did have a few 36D's,..I Never really Got Into them.
Being Younger, I guess I was into the 'Bleeding Edge ' !!,..lol
Mind you I never got 'sucked in' by 'B' Motors !! :):)

Gee I remember Wayne Bramble Having Some absolutely 'Wild' "Spiderman" Triples Way Back !!

They Worked Great Here,. as we Had No Tracks like You Guys and Widely Varying Power supplies etc.

I Know what ya mean re the Posterior Pain !!,.. ;) ;) ,..but there's sumthin' cool about Doubles/Triples eh !!

26#'s ???,..Love "em !!

Used to Run quite a Few 26# arms in 26D's as well.

I will Have to Order some Longer Blamks from Mura,..as I thought I had Heaps,..I Do,..But they are all the 375 and 350 lengths, I Only have a Couple of The Longer Older blanks,..DOH !!,..The things we Lose and or Throw away eh !!,..sigh,..

Hey Whatever Happened to Those 'Real Purdy' .oo4 Champion Stacks,..as I Recall, they Had a Great Web and Hood Shape !!, Especially for the Kind of Arms We are Talking about.

For That Matter,..What did Team Checkpoint Use??,..Every Damn Steube arm I Ever Owned was an absolute 'Pearler' !!!
Ahh,..the Memories,..the smell of the Magic Smoke 'Getting Out',....lol
Stewart Amos

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#78 havlicek

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 09:56 AM

Stoo,

Yeah, the 36Ds never attracted me...they seemed HUGE, but I do recall having done some as I tended to rip apart whatever I got my grubby hands on.

I will Have to Order some Longer Blamks from Mura,..as I thought I had Heaps,..I Do,..But they are all the 375 and 350 lengths, I Only have a Couple of The Longer Older blanks,..DOH !!,..The things we Lose and or Throw away eh !!,..sigh,..


I got a hold of some of those short stacks and was able to get two longer stacks out of every three (or three out of every four). It was really difficult, but it is doable if you get stuck. Keep in mind that the blanks Mura sells now are not the same as the old ones you're talking about here. The web/cross section is quite thin so you have to be careful when balancing them. The new Mura coms are fine and are useable "as-is" even if you don't have access to a com lathe. If you do have a lathe, they require only a slight amount of truing to get them spot-on. The Kirkwoods are misshapen right out of the bag and require some pretty heavy cutting to get them true...I also much prefer the tabs on the new Muras over the old coms.

Hey Whatever Happened to Those 'Real Purdy' .oo4 Champion Stacks,..as I Recall, they Had a Great Web and Hood Shape !!, Especially for the Kind of Arms We are Talking about.


I got two of the Champion stacks over the last year or so and both had shaft problems. I think I was able to get one sort of straight and use it, but it was a shame because they were really nice.

For That Matter,..What did Team Checkpoint Use??,..Every Damn Steube arm I Ever Owned was an absolute 'Pearler' !!!
Ahh,..the Memories,..the smell of the Magic Smoke 'Getting Out',....lol


Beats me, but I'm sure Philippe and others here do. For rewinds, I only did Mabuchis as a kid and those arms had real problems with the coms. Later when I bought blanks, it was whatever was on the wall at the track as I wasn't particular. Probably both Champions and Muras!?

-john
John Havlicek

#79 havlicek

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 05:39 PM

...and speaking of #26 awg, here's a nice one. A little on the milder side and should draw under 3 amps to run pretty cool. Vintage Mura .007" blank/Kirkwood com, blah blah blah... :)
Posted Image

-john
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#80 Lenny M

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 08:25 PM

John,

I have a question?
Does it mater which direction the wire is wound around the pole?
Clockwise or counterclockwise?
I know about timing the comm, but just do not know if it matters about wind direction?

Thanks

Lenny M
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#81 havlicek

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 08:37 PM

Hi Lenny,

The sequence of poles matters (looking at the arm from the top/end of the com shaft...working counterclockwise), but I don't know that the direction of each pole's wrap matters. I really don't know for sure though as I've always done it the same way, and have always seen it done that way. Looking at each pole head-on I wrap clockwise and that leaves the last wrap to pass over the pole on it's way to the next com tab, which is also neat and convenient. It seems as though it would be difficult to make the pass to the next com tab wrapping counterclockwise without maybe interfering with the next pole. So...the short answer is...beats me! :unsure: :laugh2:

-john
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#82 Phil Irvin

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 10:13 PM

...and speaking of #26 awg, here's a nice one. A little on the milder side and should draw under 3 amps to run pretty cool. Vintage Mura .007" blank/Kirkwood com, blah blah blah... :)
Posted Image

-john


What is the timing set at? Looks like a bunch to my ol 4 eyes. :umnik2:

PHIL

#83 idare2bdul

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 10:21 PM

What is the timing set at? Looks like a bunch to my ol 4 eyes. :umnik2:

PHIL

Timing, well if this is Tuesday it maybe timed into next Thursday. What the heck, rev er up!
The light at the end of the tunnel is almost always a train.
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#84 havlicek

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Posted 22 October 2008 - 05:15 AM

Hi Phil,

Timing is 20 degrees advance, not particularly wild at all and the wind is moderate. The arm revs smoothly and doesn't get too warm. It draws less than 3 amps not broken-in using a sloppy setup I keep for testing. I think this would be another good arm of the general type Jairus mentioned for the proxy.

Timing, well if this is Tuesday it maybe timed into next Thursday. What the heck, rev er up!


...nope, and this arm is way more conservative than a good many of the rewinds seen here and elsewhere, although I did take care with stuff like the same high-temp epoxy (on this one recoating the arm before winding as well as after) and tieing with kevlar as well as cutting the com before testing and cleaning it up afterwards.

-john
John Havlicek

#85 havlicek

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Posted 22 October 2008 - 06:06 AM

ANNOUNCEMENT! :laugh2:

I see some continuing misunderstanding relating to what I'm doing with rewinding arms here. To further make my points that:

1)Winding is fun and more people should do it
2)What some think are crazy/dangerous arms are just my take on what winders have been doing for decades
3)Make them mild or make them wild and use them accordingly. If it's fun...then it's "right".


...I'd like to make an offer. I will send two arms for free to someone here that can use them IF they will use them like NOW. One will be the #26 shown above and another will be more of an "open" type wind. The person should be able to set up a C can (either modern or vintage will work just fine) and have a track with good power nearby. Use them...abuse them...have fun with them! However long they last or if they're the fastest on the block isn't really important. What IS important is that you can make them yourself and stick them in a chassis you make yourself...and then wrap that all up with a body you painted. That's what scratchbuilding is all about...no?

Just PM me here if you're interested. This should be fun and I'll announce who I'm sending them to right here maybe later today or tomorrow...if anyone is game :unsure: :rolleyes: :shok: :laugh2:

-john
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#86 havlicek

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 05:15 AM

TADA! Well partly anyway :-) The #26 is going to a member, but he hasn't run any of the hotter stuff for a long time so I still have a "spicy meatball" arm waiting to send if anyone who runs these kinds of things will use it. PM if interested.

-john
John Havlicek

#87 havlicek

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Posted 27 October 2008 - 07:08 PM

I haven't done a double wind in a while so it seemed like a good thing to do. Here's a #28awg double wind on a vintage Mura blank with Kirkwood com. It sings soprano :shok: :laugh2:

Posted Image

-john
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#88 Jairus

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Posted 27 October 2008 - 08:15 PM

Wow!
Wow!


I like double winds!
I like double winds!


:sun_bespectacled:
:sun_bespectacled:

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#89 stoo23

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 12:32 AM

Mmmmm,..like Homer Simpson says about Donuts,..

"is there anything a double wind can't do?",..:):)
Stewart Amos

Old 'Phhtt' Racer from Sydney, Australia
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#90 havlicek

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 05:56 AM

Thanks Jairus and Stoo. Doublewinds are tedious, trying to keep the pair neat, tight and together during all those trips around the arm. It's always a relief when they're done :blink: This one has some pretty serious revs going on as I suspected it would, so I made double sure I tied the com really well!

-john
John Havlicek

#91 havlicek

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Posted 31 October 2008 - 06:57 PM

Rick had me thinking about doing a #24 single after his good results with the wind, so I did one sort of like that one. This is a brutal wind by any measure (and I mean that in a good way of course! :) ) and when he says:

It will spin Alpha's all the way down the straight


...I believe it from the sound of this thing :shok:

Posted Image

-john
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#92 Tex

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Posted 31 October 2008 - 06:59 PM

Yup, that's serious wire there.
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#93 Horsepower

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Posted 31 October 2008 - 11:00 PM

I've been meaning to ask-John, where do you get those comms from?

"You do not know these men. You may have looked at them, but you did not see them. They are the wind that blows newspapers down a gutter on a windy night -- and sweeps the gutter clean."


#94 Phil Irvin

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Posted 01 November 2008 - 12:23 AM

;)
Back when I was doing my own arms. Most everyone was winding 24 or 26 guage. We had 1 track that was still had an old powerpack and with 8 24 guage motors. There was not a bunch of extra amps to be had. I did a double 29 that was a tad slower qualifing :unsure: but when there were 7 amp suckers and me runnin....I went and hid from them. :smoking: That was the only track I ran it on. :laugh2:

OL'FRTS RACIN TEAM
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#95 havlicek

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Posted 01 November 2008 - 07:09 AM

Yup, that's serious wire there.


For sure Tex! The 24's and 23's are the ones that rev like there's no tomorrow, but they're a real pain to wind (especially the #23's) and keep neat because the wire's so stout. Of course, there's no such thing as a free lunch...and these things will draw more than 4 amps (no load). Still, they have so much torque and rpm's it's pretty amazing.

I've been meaning to ask-John, where do you get those comms from?


Hi Gary,

The comms are either current Mura (as is the case here) or vintage ...usually Kirkwood. In either case I cut them, and on the Muras that means just a light pass or two. The Kirkwoods need some pretty significant work to get them to clean-up round and true. What's got me wondering here is that, although most of the rewinding I did as a kid was on Mabuchis...I also did some new winds on blank arms and coms you could buy at the tracks. I assume that these had either Kirkwoods or similar and I just ran them as-is. The thing is, these coms are so far out of round it's amazing they ran at all since I of course didn't own a com lathe back then. I wish I could remember how they ran or even if I did something to try and straighten them out...but I can't :blink:

Back when I was doing my own arms. Most everyone was winding 24 or 26 guage. We had 1 track that was still had an old powerpack and with 8 24 guage motors. There was not a bunch of extra amps to be had. I did a double 29 that was a tad slower qualifing but when there were 7 amp suckers and me runnin....I went and hid from them. That was the only track I ran it on.


Hi Phil...that's what I'd call "good strategy"! I recently did a double #28 that winds like nobody's business but draws significantly less current than the "big wire" arms. To a certain extent, these things can probably be evened-out a bit with gearing and chassis weight, but just hearing these things wind (or scream!) is a thrill.

-john
John Havlicek

#96 Phil Irvin

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Posted 01 November 2008 - 03:46 PM

:laugh2:

As I remember..WOW... I was geared 7/29 or 30 when most were 8/28 or 29. Could hear the difference.....

PHIL

#97 havlicek

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Posted 06 November 2008 - 07:40 AM

In the odd event that anyone here is thinking of doing some arm winding :unsure: :laugh2: , I just started playing around with one of the Mura .007" blanks. Up until now, I've been using Mura's .014" blanks (aside from winding/rewinding some vintage arms) and those have been fine. The .007" blanks have a different web and are noticeably easier to wind. I've tried several different gauges of wire on it and had similar results with them all. So if you're interested...you may want to try one of these. FYI

-john
John Havlicek

#98 Prof. Fate

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Posted 06 November 2008 - 02:27 PM

In the odd event that anyone here is thinking of doing some arm winding :unsure: :laugh2: , I just started playing around with one of the Mura .007" blanks. Up until now, I've been using Mura's .014" blanks (aside from winding/rewinding some vintage arms) and those have been fine. The .007" blanks have a different web and are noticeably easier to wind. I've tried several different gauges of wire on it and had similar results with them all. So if you're interested...you may want to try one of these. FYI

-john


Hi

Told ya' you wanted the 007s.

Fate
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#99 havlicek

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 02:39 PM

Hi Rocky,

So do all .007" lam arms have this web design now? I've used a bunch of vintage Mura .007's that have a regular fat/straight leg, but this is the first modern .007 I've used and the legs taper from the outside towards the shaft. It makes it noticeably easier to lay the wire flat and tight.

-john
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#100 Prof. Fate

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Posted 08 November 2008 - 01:20 PM

Hi John,

Shocking as it may seem, I have not seen all or even most of the 007 blanks! In the day, I was convinced that the 007s and the change in alloy alone produced a better field saturation, essentially getting more out of our magnets allowing a cooler run with a given wind.

that they commonly came with a thinner web was just a plus! I still have 007 blanks, mostly from burned out pro arms I built THEN. It was a basic thing, the arm blows, I would strip it down and put it in the box for a later wind. A number of these survived because of the sudden crash of G.7 racing in about 73 around here.

Fate
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