169 replies to this topic

[swodem]

As I implied earlier, you have a habit of ONLY reading what you want to read.

 

 

Our fastest time for a LMP PS9000 is 4.895 (set on 10 November)

 

Our fastest time for a S16D GTP is 4.801 (set on 17 September)

 

Our fastest time for a G1 GTP is 4.555 (set on 17 September)

 

Where did I ever mention ES24?

 

 

These new motors, assuming you are lucky enough to find a "Rocket" are far too fast for the motor they are supposed to be replacing, the PS4002

 

But you have proven yourself wrong

 

You said this PS9000 is faster than a S16D GTP (which you've shown now its not)

You said its almost as fast as a G12 GTP (which its not its at least 1/3 second slower - even with the one freak lap you're quoting)

What is the all-time fastest lap that's been done with a C43 LMP 4002 in practice? I know in a race its 5.005 so its hardly a massive leap to 4.895 for a non-scrutineered (read any ride height) club play night test

 

One could say that the performance is about the same as a S16D, but a smaller lighter motor. That's hardly the massive deviation from the 4002 you're depicting. In fact, apart from PB's car/motor, CD's and AT's cars are closer (within 1-1.5/10th) to what they do with their 4002's. Happy to Graph this for you if you don't agree

[Zippity]

Correction

 

The fastest a S16D GTP had gone on a Club night is 4.881

 

The rest is semantics.

 

The PS9000 is NOT a suitable replacement for the 4002. It has been forced upon us by a manufacturer/seller who is out to make money. PERIOD.

 

The chances of buying a "Rocket" are about 20 to 1

 

 

This discussion between you and me is now finished.

 

I have better things to do with my time!

[swodem]

So your summary is 

 

1. Its too fast

2. Its inconsistent

 

What motor is your suggestion?

 

The lazy way is to be like Statler and Waldorf, but it doesn't get us a solution

[team burrito]

The PS9000 is NOT a suitable replacement for the 4002. It has been forced upon us by a manufacturer/seller who is out to make money. PERIOD.

 

What motor is your suggestion?

my suggestion is a JK hawk 6 with the stock chinese arm, stock set-up, rebuilding is allowed - problem solved.

[Zippity]

 

my suggestion is a JK hawk 6 with the stock chinese arm, stock set-up, rebuilding is allowed - problem solved.

 

Even a PS9000 with a standard 4002 armature is better than nothing.

 

But a G12 wind?    

[swodem]

 
my suggestion is a JK hawk 6 with the stock chinese arm, stock set-up, rebuilding is allowed - problem solved.

I’m not against that.
I believe there are many that want a seal or tag
Have you tried one around Wellington?
IMHO the only options viable will be something in a PS Mini-can or JK Mini-can

Personally if people would accept the high one-off cost I’d be happier with a S16C in a C-can for the C43 classes


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[swodem]

 
Even a PS9000 with a standard 4002 armature is better than nothing.
 
But a G12 wind?    

It’s not a G12 wind
The 4002 Euro (that uses ceramic magnets ) is a 60T motor


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[team burrito]

I believe there are many that want a seal or tag
IMHO the only options viable will be something in a PS Mini-can or JK Mini-can

the JK hawk 6 is a mini-can; it can be had with poly-neos or ceramics, but with the superior endbell. if you stick with the stock chinese arm, it shouldn't make any difference whether it's sealed or not. in fact, replacing the arm is a plus in my book.

[crazyphysicsteacher]

Lol, that's kinda what I was thinking! (Just for the record, Bobby and I race at the same raceway.)
 
On a more serious note, is anyone actually racing these? Aside from Mike Swiss's wing car guy, it seems that all of the posts are about test cars.
 
I've mostly stayed out of commenting, except to ask what gears people are running, because I don't want to be the guy jumping on a forum talking trash when something happens. But I'm not really seeing much in the way of info on here from people actually racing them.
 
Bobby is right about our luck with them locally. We're losing about a third of the motors that people are racing here. We've asked ProSlot for advice, and even on cars geared more conservatively than they're recommendation, they're still going up in smoke like Bobby's did. Some have definitely been geared too aggressively, but many haven't. It would be one thing if we could say that at a particular gear ratio, they'll probably be ok, but more aggressive than that is questionable, but we haven't been able to nail down anything consistent that actually works.
 
Please don't take this as me being negative or trash-talking anyone, I'm just looking for answers. Is there a typical gear ratio that consistently works with these motors? I'm trying to keep myself and two or three kids in competitive cars, and I can't afford to spend $100 a race on motors that may or may not even last through the race.

I have now raced this motor twice. There are 16+ guys at the local track now running them on a regular basis. They have all found that the motor likes to run a pinion and spur tooth less than the the fk.

They run well when you replace the crap brushes and springs with a better set. I have two races on a motor right now and find it to be a smooth motor. As a true beginner motor, no. As a second step yes. Some motors may have issues but those are normal. The fk had many issues from random arm timing to tossing winds like free tee shirts.

The hawk motor will do the same with the stock arm but similar can.
This motor will provide a fast car at a decent price for those that are not ready to spend the cash on a gr12. I find the motor to be as fast as the first fk motors sold, those were very fast and consistent. These motors seem to be the same way right now from the distributor.

Now, I understand that there are some who like the fk. They were made to fit a replacement for the hawk 7 in classes from an established mini can. It has now passed like many motors. It had some major short comings in design that held it back. Those short comings were over looked because the other option was a literal time bomb in a car. Too much gear by a tooth sent the arm up in smoke by the 6th heat. This motor will either live or die by how long it lasts and price. If the price goes up it won't last. But for most, as long as the magnets don't die they will be fast enough for most people.

For those stuck on the fk because of developing big programs, time to realize that the past of constant motors for years my be over. The market will be going through changes as supplies and materials change availability. It will be like this for years, we need to just move on and deal with what is now in front of us.

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[crazyphysicsteacher]

the JK hawk 6 is a mini-can; it can be had with poly-neos or ceramics, but with the superior endbell. if you stick with the stock chinese arm, it shouldn't make any difference whether it's sealed or not. in fact, replacing the arm is a plus in my book.

Yes, the koford arm makes for a nice motor. The same with the proslot x12 arm. Both make for a nice workable and drivable motor for the masses.

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[rmjlmartin]

I'm not going to necessarily argue with you Chris. But, from our perspective...

 

The 4002fk worked well for us, because it ran well, was mostly pretty consistent, and worked well for a variety of classes. 4" Flexi and JK Indy cars have been by far the most popular classes here, and we run the 4002fk and ProSlot Scorpion American arm motor with an 11 or 12 tooth pinion, open spur. They run well and generally have a good lifespan, as long as you don't gear it too tall. I believe most people ended up running about 11/35 or 12/35. We run a number of different classes, with the same chassis and motor rules, but with different bodies. So, instead of having to build multiple cars, which some people do anyway, you can simply put a different body on the car and tweak the tires or whatever to match the aero of the body, and run the different class. It allows us good variety, with minimal cost. And because of the fact that many of our racers are relatively new, the sealed motor is a definite plus.

 

The 4002fk was not available from distributors for a couple of months before the Speedball came out, so we were already rationing motors, and everyone was happy when the Speedball was finally available. But unfortunately, unlike your experience, we have not been able to find a gear ratio that works. Dropping a tooth on the pinion has not helped. One of the last that burned up lasted three two-minute heats and was geared 9/37. It seems that about a third of the ones we've had here locally have gone up in smoke, no matter how they're geared, in about a race or less. We do have a few now that have survived several races, and a couple of those have had better brushes put in them, so maybe that's part of the problem? I know we've seen dramatically more brush wear on these than the 4002fk. Maybe we're doing something wrong, but at least so far, even ProSlot has not been able to tell us anything helpful.

 

I do agree with Ron (Zippity) that the Speedball is not a good direct replacement for the 4002fk. Not a bad motor, if we can get the issues, whether they're quality control or user error, worked out. I think it would be great for some of the faster Flexi classes, or Group F, or something like that, but we can't use it for the variety of classes that the 4002fk worked for. We may end up getting a motor from ProSlot made to our specs, or try the JK Hawk 6. I'd personally be open to letting people rebuild them, but most people prefer a sealed motor at this point, since it does help even the playing field against the few people here that know how to build motors well.

 

Again, to anyone reading this, please don't take this as trash talk, I'm just looking for answers.

[gotboostedvr6]

In my experience a Jk hawk 6 Chinese is actually pretty close to a 4002fk in lap times. Maybe 1/2 tenth slower on average.

[gotboostedvr6]

I would use a cr102 in place of the 4002fk. In my experience all of them run within 1/2 tenth. They last forever

Gear 14 35 on flat track flexy

[crazyphysicsteacher]

I'm not going to necessarily argue with you Chris. But, from our perspective...
 
The 4002fk worked well for us, because it ran well, was mostly pretty consistent, and worked well for a variety of classes. 4" Flexi and JK Indy cars have been by far the most popular classes here, and we run the 4002fk and ProSlot Scorpion American arm motor with an 11 or 12 tooth pinion, open spur. They run well and generally have a good lifespan, as long as you don't gear it too tall. I believe most people ended up running about 11/35 or 12/35. We run a number of different classes, with the same chassis and motor rules, but with different bodies. So, instead of having to build multiple cars, which some people do anyway, you can simply put a different body on the car and tweak the tires or whatever to match the aero of the body, and run the different class. It allows us good variety, with minimal cost. And because of the fact that many of our racers are relatively new, the sealed motor is a definite plus.
 
The 4002fk was not available from distributors for a couple of months before the Speedball came out, so we were already rationing motors, and everyone was happy when the Speedball was finally available. But unfortunately, unlike your experience, we have not been able to find a gear ratio that works. Dropping a tooth on the pinion has not helped. One of the last that burned up lasted three two-minute heats and was geared 9/37. It seems that about a third of the ones we've had here locally have gone up in smoke, no matter how they're geared, in about a race or less. We do have a few now that have survived several races, and a couple of those have had better brushes put in them, so maybe that's part of the problem? I know we've seen dramatically more brush wear on these than the 4002fk. Maybe we're doing something wrong, but at least so far, even ProSlot has not been able to tell us anything helpful.
 
I do agree with Ron (Zippity) that the Speedball is not a good direct replacement for the 4002fk. Not a bad motor, if we can get the issues, whether they're quality control or user error, worked out. I think it would be great for some of the faster Flexi classes, or Group F, or something like that, but we can't use it for the variety of classes that the 4002fk worked for. We may end up getting a motor from ProSlot made to our specs, or try the JK Hawk 6. I'd personally be open to letting people rebuild them, but most people prefer a sealed motor at this point, since it does help even the playing field against the few people here that know how to build motors well.
 
Again, to anyone reading this, please don't take this as trash talk, I'm just looking for answers.

And I will say you have found the problem. The stock brushes with stock springs are a too soft combination. The stock brushes also have a problem with in consistent mix of materials and have hard and soft spots withing the brush. Those issues will lead to over heated comms, filled slots and lots of smoke. As you have said, those with better springs and brushes have lasted longer, follow that process. I also suggest narrowing the brushes as Swiss did way back when on the jk hawk motors. The narrowing of the brush helps these small comm motors run cooler and last longer before they short out across the comms.
As to the fk, they had the same issues with most Chinese motors, good ones were hard to find. They also had a habit of melting the endbell on some people when they used the soft spring and soft brush combo.
As to your gearing, drop two on the pinion. These motors like to spin and work better warm but not hot. They will get faster as you run it which can lead to them being overgeared. Try the Monte moto, gear to spin to win.

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[MSwiss]

What brushes are you switching to?

[PCH Parts Express]

Ran the PS-9000 for the first time last week. Removed the 4002FK from the wing car. Installed the PS-9000 with G7 brushes and PS-605 (CH-526L) springs. 

 

PS-4002FK was geared 13/38 64p  .710 tires

PS-9000 was geared 12/37 64p  .710 tires

 

The new motor ran fine. It ran strong 8 heats. Before installing it we broke it in for about 1 hour on a power supply at 5V. 

 

We will use this same motor in the next race. We'll re-gear it for a hair more speed. Instead of 12/37 64p we may use 12/36 64p.

[Zippity]

I have installed some G7 brushes and Champion Light Red motor springs into my useless PS9000

 

Currently on 5 volts on my power supply.

 

Will give a test run tomorrow.

 

Here's hoping  

[kustomfab1]

Are the 4007s going to still be made?

[rmjlmartin]

Mike, I believe that at least one of the motors had ProSlot G7 brushes installed in place of the stock ones, but I believe one of the ones that has lasted several races had a second set of standard ProSlot brushes installed in it when the ones that came in it wore down. I'm not absolutely certain on the second one.

 

Chris, we haven't had any issues with running the stock brushes in the 4002fk motors, but I know the Speedball is noticeably higher RPM and higher performance, so it might well be that the stock brushes are adequate for one but not the other. I'll have to ask again and see for sure what has been put in what.

 

How exactly are you suggesting narrowing the brushes? There could obviously be several ways of doing it. Since you mentioned shorting across the comm, I assume that you're meaning trimming the trailing edge so that you wouldn't have as much brush contact around the circumference of the brush? Mike, I assume it was you that Chris is referring to, so feel free to chime in.

[MSwiss]

Yes, I'm Swiss. Lol

I trimmed as the blue shows.

I call it reducing the height but some call it reducing the width.

But as you see, it will reduce the overlap.

I originally did them with the Hawk 6's and it seemed to help a bit with motor performance and I sold a modest amount to other racers and raceways. I resurrected the cut brushes again when we started using the 4002FK's in our hard bodies.

It was more a consideration to prevent push starts.

[MSwiss]

Are the 4007’s going to still be made?


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IMO, you would have a better chance checking with John Miller on FB or by email.

[rmjlmartin]

Yes, I'm Swiss. Lol

I trimmed as the blue shows.

I call it reducing the height but some call it reducing the width.

But as you see, it will reduce the overlap.

I originally did them with the Hawk 6's and it seemed to help a bit with motor performance and I sold a modest amount to other racers and raceways. I resurrected the cut brushes again when we started using the 4002FK's in our hard bodies.

It was more a consideration to prevent push starts.

20221126_131034.jpg

 

Thanks, Mike. I'll pass it on and I'm sure we'll give it a try.

[Bill Seitz]

Something else no one has mentioned here, but misaligned brush hoods also cause problems with the brushes wearing correctly, changing timing, and leading to shorting and arcing problems which cause high brush wear and other overheating issues. I've found brush hood alignment to be all over the place on these Chinese motors, and the metal is soft and bends easily. The hoods can be aligned and then go out of alignment in use. Pulling on the leads and crashes, even routine handling of motors, will re-align the brush hoods. Also possible the screws used to secure the endbell hardware are too small to hold securely.

 

I have a half-dozen or so FK4002 motors. I lost all the arms to either burned windings or thrown comm segments. Same happened with replacement arms. I eventually replaced everything with Hawk 6 arms and have had no issues since. I've not had issues with either the stock springs or brushes, just with maintaining correct brush alignment.

[Bill Seitz]

Since I typed the message above, I realized this issue with the small endbell screws also applies to newer Chinese C & D can endbells where I've also had problems. Not sure I can install larger screws in the mini-can endbells, but it seems like the tiny heads don't have enough binding force.

[swodem]

…The hoods can be aligned and then go out of alignment in use. Pulling on the leads and crashes, even routine handling of motors, will re-align the brush hoods. Also possible the screws used to secure the endbell hardware are too small to hold securely…

With respect, I disagree

I don’t believe they can ‘move or become out of alignment’ as you have indicated above, unless the screws were not done up.


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